Unions

[DrSmile]

To continue...

[DrSmile]

As this is shit talk, I can be more blatant :)

You could not be more misinformed Utah!

The cost of producing a barrel of oil in the Middle East is about $2 a barrel. The cost of producing a barrel of oil for the ENTIRE WORLD averages less than $8 a barrel. From 1995-2000, the profit margin on a barrel of oil in the US based on final product sold AFTER all production costs including refining QUADRUPELED! Note this was BEFORE the barrel price TRIPLED! Exxon Mobil's profits DOUBLED from 2003-2005 from $30 to $60 BILLION. Have you gotten a 100% raise in the last 2 years? Do you think the people that work at Exxon Mobil, aside from the corporate fat cats, are seeing any of this profit? Is it right for them not to get at least some of this money?

I used the steel industry as an example because that was a huge industry at the time. It doesn't matter what industry it is, what matters is that the CONDITIONS of employment are deteriorating to those times. There is NO job security anymore, there is NO limit on the amount of hours people are asked to work. There has been NO improvement on the amount of vacation time given. Meanwhile corporations have made the MOST AMOUNT OF PROFIT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE US!

As for Telcom, how many choices do you have in cell phone companies? What options do you have for signing up for a plan?

Wow, using Ford as an example is really a poor choice. Did you ever see Charlie Chaplin in "Modern Times?" The monotony and poor working conditions is why Ford had to raise the pay. His profits still doubled after creating the $5 work day. I'm not going to go into his anti-Semitic views, but Ford certainly did NOT care about his workers, he cared about the final product. During the depression he would fire people who dared to TALK while working.

The model T was obsolete even before 1925. No one would buy it, that's why the price dropped so significantly. Henry Ford was so attached to his model T he lost huge sums of money by not shutting down the plant and retooling earlier.

[atc250r]

Quote is from the hi jacked thread:


its more than the UAW

I think we're all aware that its not only that union but I was using that as an example. I agree that the shit that goes on in many of the NY/NJ construction unions is just as insane as what goes on in the auto industry. How does Ford doubling peoples pay 80 years ago relate to the fact that everyday workers are getting screwed left and right in today's labor market while large corporations are posting record profits? Do you know how much extra those of us in the auto trade get for working overtime? Nothing! I don't get time and a half for working over 40 hours every week, I didn't get anything extra when they forced us to start working on Saturdays. I don't complain about it since it's what I need to do to keep paying my mortgage and support my family. It is almost a necessity nowadays for someone who is a skilled laborer (like myself) to live in a two income household but it wasn't like that 30 years ago. Unfortunately the rich continue to get richer at the expense of the middle class.

John

[NJGSX96]

Do you know how much extra those of us in the auto trade get for working overtime? Nothing! I don't get time and a half for working over 40 hours every week, I didn't get anything extra when they forced us to start working on Saturdays.

Aren't you paid by the book hours of the job? So if you do 10 motor swaps in a week, each listed as 8 hours of labor, but it only takes you 40 hours to do them, you get paid the equivalent of 80 hours for that 40 hour work week? Of course on the flip side, if it took you 100 hours to do that 80 book hours, you get paid for only 80 hours, nott he 100 you actually did. That is how it is for the mechanics I know at least. Just curious.

I am salaried and average 45-50 hours a week (not to mention being on call 1 week a month, 24/7) and don't get overtime, so people who cry about not getting overtime, as far as I am concerned, can go shit in their hat! :twisted:

[atc250r]

Yeah but coming here on a Saturday and billing 6 hours because (through no fault of your own) there is no work to do is a pretty shitty way to spend your Saturday. Especially when it isn't even time and a half. Flat rate is a system that focuses solely on production with no emphasis on doing a quality repair. IMHO that's why dealer service departments ended up with such an awful reputation for ripping people off. As far as overtime goes you overlooked one scenario. Lets say I work 50 hours this week and bill out (get paid for) 45 or even 60 hours. Does that not mean that for the 10 hours extra I put in I shouldn't be paid at time and a half? NJ doesn' t think so, I believe some states (California in particular) force the dealer to pay you time and a half for anytime you are in the building over 40 hours. Look at it this way if you are flipping burgers at McDonalds can the manager come over at the end of the day and say "Rich, it was slow at lunch today and we only sold half the number of burgers we normally do so I can only pay you for a half a day."? I'm getting off track here with my own personal dislike for the pay system at dealers so I'm gonna stop my rant now. :D

John

[Utah Joe]

As this is shit talk, I can be more blatant :)

You could not be more misinformed Utah!

The cost of producing a barrel of oil in the Middle East is about $2 a barrel. The cost of producing a barrel of oil for the ENTIRE WORLD averages less than $8 a barrel. From 1995-2000, the profit margin on a barrel of oil in the US based on final product sold AFTER all production costs including refining QUADRUPELED! Note this was BEFORE the barrel price TRIPLED! Exxon Mobil's profits DOUBLED from 2003-2005 from $30 to $60 BILLION. Have you gotten a 100% raise in the last 2 years? Do you think the people that work at Exxon Mobil, aside from the corporate fat cats, are seeing any of this profit? Is it right for them not to get at least some of this money?


There have been 17 government investigations into the oil companies and profits in the past 20 years, not one has ever found a case of gouging. Now did the fat cats at exxon get any help from the government and its employees when oil was $11 a barrel and oil stocks were completly worthless throughout the 80's and 90's? And what does the cost have anything to do with the market price? What does it cost to make a set of braces? The sale price is set by the market. Exxon mobil and conoco also shelled out 45 billion in taxes last year. The first quarter of this year, exxon made 8.4 billion when the government made 17billion on taxes of it gasoline. How come you are not complaining about that? Not to mention the fact the Exxon is a global company which only 30% of its product sales occur in the USA. Furthermore, only 46% of what exxon even seles is gasoline. Are you saying that profits doubling have nothing do to with the fact that we are super dependant on foreign oil, have to deal with nut cases such as the leaders of iran, venezuela, etc.. Not a new refinery in 30 years, cant drill in any locations in the US, TONS of additives having to be added to the gasoline. If you think the gas prices are simply greed by a few fat cats, you are not doing any serious research. Ya they make a ton of money, so does matt laurer, derek jeter, brad pitt, etc... The ammount they make is pisswater compaired to how much the goverment makes on us off of gasoline. You take back Lee Raymonds $400 million dollar retirement package and you could lower the gas prices about $1 per gallon for one whole day. (we use 390,000,000 gallons of gas a day)



I used the steel industry as an example because that was a huge industry at the time. It doesn't matter what industry it is, what matters is that the CONDITIONS of employment are deteriorating to those times. There is NO job security anymore, there is NO limit on the amount of hours people are asked to work. There has been NO improvement on the amount of vacation time given. Meanwhile corporations have made the MOST AMOUNT OF PROFIT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE US!


No job security is a pretty broad statement. Even in the auto industry. Toyota, nissan, and all of the other foreign companies who operate assembly plants in the US and are non union are doing pretty well.



As for Telcom, how many choices do you have in cell phone companies? What options do you have for signing up for a plan?

jesus, TONS!!!!! far more than I ever had with a home phone. It used to be bell atlantic local, at&t long distance, THATS IT!!! Now, verizon, nextel, singular, sprint, etc. Plus you have companies like vonage, and optimum with cable phone service as well.




Wow, using Ford as an example is really a poor choice. Did you ever see Charlie Chaplin in "Modern Times?" The monotony and poor working conditions is why Ford had to raise the pay. His profits still doubled after creating the $5 work day. I'm not going to go into his anti-Semitic views, but Ford certainly did NOT care about his workers, he cared about the final product. During the depression he would fire people who dared to TALK while working.

The turn over rate is why ford did it. Ya I'm sure it was a sucky job. What factory job is a wonderful time? Its fucking work, not play time. But appearently $5 a day was enough to keep people working and dealing with the shitty work. Ford's profits increasing had much more to do with the fact that WW1 started in the same year.


The model T was obsolete even before 1925. No one would buy it, that's why the price dropped so significantly. Henry Ford was so attached to his model T he lost huge sums of money by not shutting down the plant and retooling earlier.

So what, it was at $250 by 1926, but even during the height of production it was less than 1/2 of its starting cost. [/quote]

[DrSmile]

There have been 17 government investigations into the oil companies and profits in the past 20 years, not one has ever found a case of gouging. Now did the fat cats at exxon get any help from the government and its employees when oil was $11 a barrel and oil stocks were completly worthless throughout the 80's and 90's? And what does the cost have anything to do with the market price? What does it cost to make a set of braces? The sale price is set by the market. Exxon mobil and conoco also shelled out 45 billion in taxes last year. The first quarter of this year, exxon made 8.4 billion when the government made 17billion on taxes of it gasoline. How come you are not complaining about that? Not to mention the fact the Exxon is a global company which only 30% of its product sales occur in the USA. Furthermore, only 46% of what exxon even seles is gasoline. Are you saying that profits doubling have nothing do to with the fact that we are super dependant on foreign oil, have to deal with nut cases such as the leaders of iran, venezuela, etc.. Not a new refinery in 30 years, cant drill in any locations in the US, TONS of additives having to be added to the gasoline. If you think the gas prices are simply greed by a few fat cats, you are not doing any serious research. Ya they make a ton of money, so does matt laurer, derek jeter, brad pitt, etc... The ammount they make is pisswater compaired to how much the goverment makes on us off of gasoline. You take back Lee Raymonds $400 million dollar retirement package and you could lower the gas prices about $1 per gallon for one whole day. (we use 390,000,000 gallons of gas a day).

The government pays for things like roads, schools, security, etc... When's the last time you went over a bridge built by Exxon Mobil? Is the government efficient at spending our money? Of course not, but at least the money is spent on services. And you really don't have a problem with Fat Bastard Raymonds getting $400 million?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/Leeraymond.jpg

You think he needs more money for french fries???



No job security is a pretty broad statement. Even in the auto industry. Toyota, nissan, and all of the other foreign companies who operate assembly plants in the US and are non union are doing pretty well.


Talk to someone who worked at IBM in the 80s or 90s.




jesus, TONS!!!!! far more than I ever had with a home phone. It used to be bell atlantic local, at&t long distance, THATS IT!!! Now, verizon, nextel, singular, sprint, etc. Plus you have companies like vonage, and optimum with cable phone service as well.

You have to be pulling my leg here. The big five companies (Verizon, Sprint/Cingular, T-mobile, Nextel, and AT&T) have all of us over the coals, the phones are years behind in terms of technology compared to Europe, their fees are all equivalently exhorbitant, and their networks are horribly poor. Try getting out of a contract or getting a new phone when you lose your old one.



The turn over rate is why ford did it. Ya I'm sure it was a sucky job. What factory job is a wonderful time? Its fucking work, not play time. But appearently $5 a day was enough to keep people working and dealing with the shitty work. Ford's profits increasing had much more to do with the fact that WW1 started in the same year.

So what, it was at $250 by 1926, but even during the height of production it was less than 1/2 of its starting cost.

A new innovation is going to be higher priced initially. If you look at this chart:

http://www.modelt.org/tprices.html

You'll see that the price in 1916 was actually lower than the price in 1926/7. By the 20s, the car was so hopelessly obsolete even Edsel Ford tried to convince his father to stop production, without success.

[Utah Joe]

[quote=Utah Joe]
There have been 17 government investigations into the oil companies and profits in the past 20 years, not one has ever found a case of gouging. Now did the fat cats at exxon get any help from the government and its employees when oil was $11 a barrel and oil stocks were completly worthless throughout the 80's and 90's? And what does the cost have anything to do with the market price? What does it cost to make a set of braces? The sale price is set by the market. Exxon mobil and conoco also shelled out 45 billion in taxes last year. The first quarter of this year, exxon made 8.4 billion when the government made 17billion on taxes of it gasoline. How come you are not complaining about that? Not to mention the fact the Exxon is a global company which only 30% of its product sales occur in the USA. Furthermore, only 46% of what exxon even seles is gasoline. Are you saying that profits doubling have nothing do to with the fact that we are super dependant on foreign oil, have to deal with nut cases such as the leaders of iran, venezuela, etc.. Not a new refinery in 30 years, cant drill in any locations in the US, TONS of additives having to be added to the gasoline. If you think the gas prices are simply greed by a few fat cats, you are not doing any serious research. Ya they make a ton of money, so does matt laurer, derek jeter, brad pitt, etc... The ammount they make is pisswater compaired to how much the goverment makes on us off of gasoline. You take back Lee Raymonds $400 million dollar retirement package and you could lower the gas prices about $1 per gallon for one whole day. (we use 390,000,000 gallons of gas a day).

The government pays for things like roads, schools, security, etc... When's the last time you went over a bridge built by Exxon Mobil? Is the government efficient at spending our money? Of course not, but at least the money is spent on services. And you really don't have a problem with Fat Bastard Raymonds getting $400 million?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/Leeraymond.jpg

You think he needs more money for french fries???



No job security is a pretty broad statement. Even in the auto industry. Toyota, nissan, and all of the other foreign companies who operate assembly plants in the US and are non union are doing pretty well.


Talk to someone who worked at IBM in the 80s or 90s.




jesus, TONS!!!!! far more than I ever had with a home phone. It used to be bell atlantic local, at&t long distance, THATS IT!!! Now, verizon, nextel, singular, sprint, etc. Plus you have companies like vonage, and optimum with cable phone service as well.

You have to be pulling my leg here. The big five companies (Verizon, Sprint/Cingular, T-mobile, Nextel, and AT&T) have all of us over the coals, the phones are years behind in terms of technology compared to Europe, their fees are all equivalently exhorbitant, and their networks are horribly poor. Try getting out of a contract or getting a new phone when you lose your old one.



The turn over rate is why ford did it. Ya I'm sure it was a sucky job. What factory job is a wonderful time? Its fucking work, not play time. But appearently $5 a day was enough to keep people working and dealing with the shitty work. Ford's profits increasing had much more to do with the fact that WW1 started in the same year.

So what, it was at $250 by 1926, but even during the height of production it was less than 1/2 of its starting cost.

A new innovation is going to be higher priced initially. If you look at this chart:

http://www.modelt.org/tprices.html

You'll see that the price in 1916 was actually lower than the price in 1926/7. By the 20s, the car was so hopelessly obsolete even Edsel Ford tried to convince his father to stop production, without success.[/quote:2dk10ox5]

I think the ammount of money Lee Raymond got is a astounding yes, but I dont think it is why gas prices are what they are. Like I said, take back his 400 million and you get nothing in gas price changes. Take back every CEO's pay from every oil company and see how much it would change gas prices. And the fact that the Government is completly inefficient at spending money is my point. The Federal government takes double what exxon gets profit wise and is never ever asked to do without a dime. They waste more money then my calculator has numbers, but they never ever held accountable for it. Schools suck in this country. They get more money than ever and they suck worse than ever, then scream about not having enough money. Everyone is so quick to cut CEO's pay, but everyone forgets about the people who are really raking it in on gasoline. In New York the combined tax is 60+ cents a gallon. I garentee you that just the money wasted in that could pay every ceo's paycheck and have plenty left over. Exxon may not have built a bridge, but when was the last time the government built a gas station.


My cell phone is cheaper than my house phone was and costs me less now than it did in 1996 when I got my first one. It works about 95% of the places I go. Plus I have a camera, email, text messaging, etc. How is that not an improvement?

[DrSmile]

I can't defend the government, except to say that getting SOMETHING is better than getting NOTHING, which is what you get from a corporation.

I see this all the time with medicaid administered medical plans. The state sucks at doling out the money, but at least most people get the care they need. Since medicaid has been partially privatized, people just get DENIED. They get NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH, while the corporations still get paid by the state. If you look at privatized education you'll see the same. The private company goes though whatever loopholes it can to collect public funds, then steals the money, and eventually goes out of business after the "administrators" have made millions. I believe Nate has a nice story to tell about Blairstown that goes along those lines...

[Utah Joe]

I can't defend the government, except to say that getting SOMETHING is better than getting NOTHING, which is what you get from a corporation.

I see this all the time with medicaid administered medical plans. The state sucks at doling out the money, but at least most people get the care they need. Since medicaid has been partially privatized, people just get DENIED. They get NOTHING, NADA, ZILCH, while the corporations still get paid by the state. If you look at privatized education you'll see the same. The private company goes though whatever loopholes it can to collect public funds, then steals the money, and eventually goes out of business after the "administrators" have made millions. I believe Nate has a nice story to tell about Blairstown that goes along those lines...

Fine you get something, but its always a diaster. I mean you can bitch about exxon, gulf, etc... But in the end there is always a gas station to fill up at, so you cant say you get nothing. How are schools privatized? At least in Nate's case? I am not talking about colleges etc...

BTW, tomorrow I am of to D.C. to see Dave Attell. Maybe I will stop at congress and see if they have a few billion I can have for my research into fucking off on the internet while working. God not having the internet at home is pissing me off right now.

Also, Rene you have got to come back and play cards again. I will call ya next time we play.

[DrSmile]

Actually I think it is a grade school... there is some retarded law in NJ that states that any private charter school has to be funded if they get like 10 students to sign up. Nate would have more info.

I need to get together with you anyways Utah to talk about designing my orthodontic appliance on CAD

[gtluke]

debating the price of oil is retarded. its not a product.
how much does it cost to dig up gold or diamonds? nothing in comparison to what they are worth.
then why are they so fucking expensive? DEMAND

you can only charge what people are willing to pay for anything. if its too expensive for you, don't buy it.


john, living on 2 incomes is the norm now. lets compare this norm to the times of the model T as discussed before. back then, 1 income would work fine. if we warped you back in time, you would have:
a house, a wife, a kid and one of the way.
you would need to buy food, and clothes. if you were lucky or wealthy you had electricity, running water, and public sewage. but probably not. you may have been able to afford owning a model T, but it wasn't the norm to own a car. an axe for wood for burning in the winter, or a delivery of coal. and some books to pass the time, and some candles to read by.

now?
add on:
definately a car, no.. make that 2 cars. okay for you 2 cars and a truck. electricity, water, sewer maybe, telephone in the home, cell phone and the plan for you, cell phone for you wife. at least one television and DVD player, cable television for it, internet but probably cable internet. air conditioner, gas or oil heat, an oven, microwave, fridge, a bunch of kitchen appliances, some CD's, maybe an ipoe and definately a computer.

i'm sure your family would survive just fine if you deleted those expenses and you lived on one salary.
the "norm" has changed, and someone has to pay for it.

[iboostdoyou]

BTW, tomorrow I am of to D.C. to see Dave Attell.

your going all the way to D.C. to see Attell?!? He does shows at the comedy cellar in NYC all the time. I must have seen him on 3 separate occasions in the 3-4 years i've been going there. IMO best place to go see a comedian, unless you dont like to be singled out in front of everyone... then certainly steer clear :lol:

[DrSmile]

I saw Dave at Rascals... he SUCKED! The openers were funnier than he was!

[gtluke]

thats it, now we know rene has lost his mind.
insulting dave attell just took it too far.

[iboostdoyou]

thats it, now we know rene has lost his mind.
insulting dave attell just took it too far.

haha honestly he's funnier on tv. In person his stuff is just kinda dry, still funny to a degree, but there are better. If you REALLY want to see some funny ass shows, take a look at Godfrey (the guy from the newer 7-up commercials), and Jim Norton. Two of the best show's I have seen to date and I've seen about 40 different comedians over the years, including Chapelle

[atc250r]

the "norm" has changed, and someone has to pay for it.

DAMN IT!! Why am I always the one to "pay for it"? :lol: I thought about those things after I posted and you're absolutely right. If I had my way that damn cell phone could go right out the window along with a lot of other stuff but unfortunately, in case of an emergency with my daughter I need it. Well we're going to just have to agree to disagree on this topic Luke. The point I really wanted to make was that I think unions are good to a point and just because Pinkertons aren't shooting at me doesn't mean I couldn't use someone watching out for my best interests at work Joe. :D .

John

[atc250r]

take a look at Godfrey (the guy from the newer 7-up commercials), and Jim Norton.

Norton is terriffic, I've enjoyed his sick, demented, twisted, and perverted sense of humor since he first came on O & A way back in their early days at WNEW. I can't to see him in that new sit com on HBO this Sunday.

John

[rsk_wannabe]

Just when I figure out WTF this post was about (had to search Rene's posts to see what started this whole thing) and am getting into the discussion, all of a sudden it turns to friggin' comedians. WTF?

I just nuked some popcorn sitting by waiting for the DrSmile v. GTLuke, debate-a-thon.

By the way Greg, I thought no one was going to comment on the news about Zarqawi. I was pretty relieved. Not sure what BigT meant by asking "was that necessary?" though.

C'mon guys, mix it up some more. :twisted:

This is infinitely more interesting than anything that has been posted in the past few months. All very good points by both sides. No clear winner from my view..... yet.

[DrSmile]

Damn blue smurf rabble-rouser! I'm old, I have no more energy to argue with Luke... He'll out-post me 10:1 anyways!

Dave is VERY funny on TV, I love his show. But when you go see him live I guarantee you'll be disappointed.

[DrSmile]

ANd the funniest comedian I have EVER seen, and I've seen a lot, is without a doubt Brian Regan... I was crying from laughing so hard for at least 10 minutes during his show.

[Nate Crisman]

Actually I think it is a grade school... there is some retarded law in NJ that states that any private charter school has to be funded if they get like 10 students to sign up. Nate would have more info.

I need to get together with you anyways Utah to talk about designing my orthodontic appliance on CAD

What I know about the charter school system our state has set up.

Apparently if you do not like how your local elementary school is run, the state of NJ has a system set up where you and a bunch of your fellow citizens can set up your own elementary school, that is 80% state funded, and there are basicly NO FUCKING RULES about the education.

A charter school was started in blairstown 2 years ago. It is founded around nature and ecology. The students are not required to pass any of the state tests that public schools are required to pass.

Every child that goes to the charter school that resides in blairstown township take $8,000.00 in state funding away from the blairstown elementary school. The blairstown school is required to pay the transportation cost to get these kids to the school as well.

11 kids from blairstown go to the charter school..thats 88,000 of funding the local school does not get. It's not like all 11 kids come out of the same classroom and even if it does an average class is 25 kids. Blairstown school's operation cost is not able to even cut one single teacher becuase of those gone 11 kids, but is forced to deal with 88grand in lost funding, as well as running extra school bus routes in innefficient ways to accomidate those 11 kids (that live at all ends of this township.

Even more fucked up...this is 100% fact. A family with 3 kids is moving into blairstown this summer from essex county. All 3 kids are going to the charter school in the fall, they are already registered and accepted. Blairstown school has to pay for it. Those kids and family have never set a foot on the public school, yet blairstown elem is going to foot 24,000 tuition to the charter school. The family moved into blairstown specificly to go to the charter school.

The real fucked up thing is the state paid out to buy the land, build the buildings, install all the utilities, pave the driveway, plant nice trees and gardens. In like 5 more ywars when the school's students are actually required to pass standerdized testing, they won't, and the school will be shut down and abondonded. The state will have wasted millions.

My wife is a 3 grade teacher at blairstown elem. She has a student who was a 2nd grade student last year at the charter school. on her first spelling test, the girl got a 9/100 F. When my wife calling the parents in for a conference to find out WTF is going on, the parents expained that thier daughter didn't know what a spelling test was. She went through first and second grades WITHOUT HAVING A SPELLING CLASS. Most of the returning students from the charter school are being classified as special education students becuase they are so far behind in basic math, spelling,reading. Apparently the charter school is collecting HUGE amount of money from the state for each attending kid (about 80) and not giving any kind of real education. I wonder where that

The people who started this school aren't teachers, they are just everyday parents who are aggrivated with the local school system (that has some of the best standardized testing scores in the state). It's completely fucked up. State of NJ gave out money grants like it's fucking river water to start these schools with really no rules on how the school is run, no standards for education, and no system to check up on it after the school is built.

[gtluke]

yuup
sounds like most state programs
worthless

[DrSmile]

Well, the state program would be the PUBLIC SCHOOL. It's just one example of services that can't be done well by private companies because there is no immediate profit involved. And there are lots of those of course. Like taking care of sick people, or building roads, subways, and railways. Not everything that is good has profit associated with it.

[gtluke]

new jersey transit runs on 50% recovery
my girlfriend takes the train to work sometimes. its $16 round trip
who's paying that other $16?
all of us who don't ride the train. even nate who doesn't live anywhere NEAR a train.

not anymore though, she just got laid off from her state job. and her union has made sure that she can't collect unemployment. they offered her a an unskilled worker as replacement so she either has to take the really crappy job, or quit. either way she can't collect unemployment she's been paying into for all these years, because the union has screwed her over with their "job placement" deal with the hospital.

big giant scam as usual.
but then again this is umdnj, i think they helped define the word scandal

[DrSmile]

Haha, I hope that wasn't directed at me. :)

No passenger railway system operates at a profit. In Germany and Japan, they spend billions supporting their railways. Of course there are some huge advantages to this. You can for example cruise from Berlin to Munich at 200 miles per hour while eating a five star meal in a dinner carriage. No traffic jams, no worries about inclement weather, no problem parking your car. If you've ever taken a bullet train it is an amazing experience.

I'm not sure what your point is about UMDNJ weasling out of paying unemployment. You think corporations don't pull the same stunts?

[Nate Crisman]

Haha, I hope that wasn't directed at me. :)

No passenger railway system operates at a profit. In Germany and Japan, they spend billions supporting their railways. Of course there are some huge advantages to this. You can for example cruise from Berlin to Munich at 200 miles per hour while eating a five star meal in a dinner carriage. No traffic jams, no worries about inclement weather, no problem parking your car. If you've ever taken a bullet train it is an amazing experience.

I'm not sure what your point is about UMDNJ weasling out of paying unemployment. You think corporations don't pull the same stunts?

Just ask my father in law about IBM completely fucking it's best/oldest employee's in the pooper. He worked for IBM for 35year and they sold off his section of the company to some IBM owned subsidy, then layed off all the old higher paid workers in some scheme to avoid paying the pensions. IBM had some loophole way of getting rid of all the older employees and fucking them out of thier pension by moving thier jobs around by hiring/firing/rehiring them to other smaller companies (that were basicly controlled by IBM).

I would belive in capitalism becuase in basic theory it should work great. BUT in reality, good workers get F'd over all too often to suite the companies best interest. Gotta love it when a company aggrees to all your benifits for 20-30 years while you work for them, but when push comes to shove and it's time to pay out those benifits they can come up with lots of ways to get out of it.

Sorta like how Luke's insurane company was willing to take his $ in premiums, but when it comes time to pay the bill and hold up thier end...any way to get out of it, thell take that loophole.

Big business did you great there huh Luke? Love those loopholes.

[gtluke]

Haha, I hope that wasn't directed at me. :)

No passenger railway system operates at a profit. In Germany and Japan, they spend billions supporting their railways. Of course there are some huge advantages to this. You can for example cruise from Berlin to Munich at 200 miles per hour while eating a five star meal in a dinner carriage. No traffic jams, no worries about inclement weather, no problem parking your car. If you've ever taken a bullet train it is an amazing experience.

I'm not sure what your point is about UMDNJ weasling out of paying unemployment. You think corporations don't pull the same stunts?

wrong, there are several profitable railways systems around the globe. njt could be one of them because the ridership is very high. but the spending is insane. its absolutely disgusting. working with their engineers the phrase "which one is more expensive? only the best for new jersey tax payers" is heard all too often.

and umdnj can get away with more, because she's not going to collect regular unemployment, she collects directly through umdnj. yet she had to pay into the regular fund every paycheck. i've never even heard of that until now.

[gtluke]

i don't blame the insurance companies for what happened to me. i blame the state. they fucked around with the laws and left a HUGE gap in coverage while still mandating that i buy coverage that doesn't apply to me.
if this was a normal state we would have normal insurance. but because they put in this no fault medical i got royally screwed. i got hit by a guy who was absolutely and completely at fault, yet he's not responsible for ANY of my medical bills. THAT is fucked up.
they put this no fault in there to make new jersey insurance rates down. haha its working right? we pay the highest in the nation :roll:

[Nate Crisman]

i don't blame the insurance companies for what happened to me. i blame the state. they fucked around with the laws and left a HUGE gap in coverage while still mandating that i buy coverage that doesn't apply to me.
if this was a normal state we would have normal insurance. but because they put in this no fault medical i got royally screwed. i got hit by a guy who was absolutely and completely at fault, yet he's not responsible for ANY of my medical bills. THAT is fucked up.
they put this no fault in there to make new jersey insurance rates down. haha its working right? we pay the highest in the nation :roll:

Go research where this no fault stuff originated from...my bet is your going to find the insurance companies lobbied for it. If they can reduce the amount of claims they pay out, then they "should" be able to lower rates.

of course when the state laws are changed to allow the no fault in, which gives the insurance companies more room to put the screws to you. But the insurance company goes back on thier word and doesn't lower the rate. corporate greed or goverment stupidity. IMHO both are at fault.

[Nate Crisman]

Government rarely does stuff like this on it's own. Chances are the state gov that put this no fault in place was in reality like a horse led around with a carrot on a stick. Insurance company lobbists being the ones riding the pony and holding the stick.

I don't see your arguement that because the state mandates that you buy insurance that didn't apply to your accident makes it the states fault that the guy that his you wasn't found at fault.

IF the state doesn't madate EVERYONE buy insurace..you would have been just as screwed becuase the other guy likely woudn't have ANY insurance at all. you would be in the same boat your in now.

Now for why your insurance didn't pay for it...seems to me you just didn't do enough research when buying your plans and ended up paying for insurance that wasn't going to help you.

You are always spouting about personal responsibility..well..where it is? why didn't your insurance plan cover you when you paid for it? Why didn't you buy good insurance that would cover your accidient? If your all about personal responsibility...why didn't you have yourself covered.

your case is pefect evedence that the gov needs to mandate insurance on everyone, and it needs to be GOOD insurance that actually pays for real accidnets..not insurance with loopholes to get out of paying claims all the time. Apparently you or the general public are not smart enough or capable to get thier insurance straigh on thier own. Gov intervention needed.

[gtluke]

if insurance wasn't mandated, i would just buy insurance for myself to cover myself if someone without insurance hits me.
there is no research to be done, i did it afterwards anyway and you can NOT get medical coverage on a motorcycle in new jersey, no matter what company or plan you go with.

i'm not crying about it though, i accept the responsibility because i took the risk so i'll pay the bills. i'm just giving example of why i don't trust the government to do anything for me. every program they run is a horrible bloated failure in comparison to the same industry in the private sector.

i absolutely do not want my medical coverage tacked onto this list. my personal medical coverage that won't pay my hospital bills was a state program also.

on the other hand, i have absolutely no problem with a state run healthcare system. i believe that the states are the solution to 90% of our national "problems"
gay marriage? let the state decide
abortion? let the state decide
healthcar? let the state decide.

this way i can move to alabama if i want no healthcare, no abortion, and no gay marriage and i can actually keep my paycheck.
but if i want to i can move to mass. and marry a man and get an abortion paid for throught the state healthcare system. shit i can probably ride a train to the hospital too. but i'd take home 50% of my paycheck that i would in alabama.
then there would be states all over that would do things like you CAN marry gay, but can't gen an abortion, or they have healthcare but no gay marriage.
you can move to the state that fits your lifestyle and still enjoy this wonderful country.

we do this now for previous debates like alcohaul and guns.
if you like guns, move to tennesee or texas where you can carry a desert eagle .50 if you want
or if you are afraid of guns you can move to washington dc where guns are completely outlawed. yet you are 3 times more likely to be violently killed in washington DC than you are in iraq :)

i believe we should take away many many many things from the feds and pass it down to the state or towns.

[DrSmile]

Luke, name me one national passenger (ie light) railway system that makes money. None of them do. There may be locally population dense routes, but that's it.

There is an interesting discussion about profitability of rail systems here:

http://bicycleaustin.info/rail/a360-dis ... 06-19.html (http://bicycleaustin.info/rail/a360-discussion-06-19.html)

People also use the mail system as an example of how privatization is better. Well, UPS and FEDEX picked the area where you can be profitable, parcel service. If mail went private, I would GUARANTEE you that a stamp to send a letter would be $1 or more. There are MANY things that don't work as a private entity because there is no way to have competition. Mail and national railway systems are just two examples.

[gtluke]

i'll answer your question in detail when the guy in the office next to me gets here. he's an authority on railroads.
we had a discussion about it a few months ago, and off the top of my head it was moscow and japan who had profitable railroad systems.

one of our problems here is how old our stuff is. moscow and japan got to do it from the ground up with modern technology and it started out as one project. our railroad system here is a clooge. i mean look how broad street isn't connected to newark penn. they were 2 seperate comapnies, with even more companies across the river in new york. now its just MTA and path but it was many more before.

if we let a private company RUN the program, backed with multistate cooperation in terms of track and land rights and standardized the whole thing it would make a ton of money.
right now in this area we have:
MTA
LIRR
PATH
JFK monorail
the tram to rosevelt island
NJT
AMTRAK
newark city subway
NJT light rail (looks like an above ground subway, even though regular njt is classified as light rail also)

if all those trains could run on all those tracks and take the same currency, AND you ditched the govt bullshit spending like they do now, it would turn a profit, or break even and it would be worth it to take the train.
like i said, it takes maria $16 to get to work and back. its cheaper to drive there. especially considering i have to drop her off and pick her up from newark anyway.

[satanpez]

I have to respond to some of the odder points.


The cost of producing a barrel of oil in the Middle East is about $2 a barrel. The cost of producing a barrel of oil for the ENTIRE WORLD averages less than $8 a barrel. From 1995-2000, the profit margin on a barrel of oil in the US based on final product sold AFTER all production costs including refining QUADRUPELED! Note this was BEFORE the barrel price TRIPLED! Exxon Mobil's profits DOUBLED from 2003-2005 from $30 to $60 BILLION. Have you gotten a 100% raise in the last 2 years? Do you think the people that work at Exxon Mobil, aside from the corporate fat cats, are seeing any of this profit? Is it right for them not to get at least some of this money?


I don't own the oil company. I didn't go spending money looking for new reserves. I didn't buy XOM as an investor. I deserve NOTHING of their profits. Would you be happy to send them money if they were losing money?


I used the steel industry as an example because that was a huge industry at the time. It doesn't matter what industry it is, what matters is that the CONDITIONS of employment are deteriorating to those times. There is NO job security anymore, there is NO limit on the amount of hours people are asked to work. There has been NO improvement on the amount of vacation time given. Meanwhile corporations have made the MOST AMOUNT OF PROFIT EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE US!
We have jobs. You're a hypocrite. You escaped a country that has all of those things? Are you no longer in Germany because your vacation time would be possibly permanent if you were among the 11% out of work?


As for Telcom, how many choices do you have in cell phone companies? What options do you have for signing up for a plan?

We have what, at least 4 cell phone companies? In europe they're still stuck on SMS because the government pushed it. In the US we have better technology CDMA because of the lack of government control.


Wow, using Ford as an example is really a poor choice. Did you ever see Charlie Chaplin in "Modern Times?" The monotony and poor working conditions is why Ford had to raise the pay. His profits still doubled after creating the $5 work day. I'm not going to go into his anti-Semitic views, but Ford certainly did NOT care about his workers, he cared about the final product. During the depression he would fire people who dared to TALK while working.

Without Ford, where would those people be? Where would our car industry be? Manufacturing industry? Our ability to make bombs to turn Dresden into ashes?

I am well aware of Utah's and Luke's anti-union views, we'll see how they feel when the economy goes into recession and their jobs get downsized...
God forbid of course!


Or just be out of a job all the time. Let's look at the 11% (Or are they down to 9% now) unemployment in Germany. Or how about the 30% unemployment among French youth. Trust me, Luke's job is quite recession proof.



And I understand that some people make money even with the current high insurance fees, but that is immaterial, what matters is the AVERAGE cost or calculated probable cost per subscriber, that is what fees are legally based on in the insurance industry.

How about we just stop regulating the insurance industry? How about stop mandating insurance for drivers? Then they'd actually have to fight for customers.

Utah, so you're saying there shouldn't be health care and other benefits or pensions for employees once they retire? What should we do, take people to the back of the building and shoot them in the head once they turn 65? Luke, do you really think someone is going to hire you when you're 60?

How about personal responsibility? The US government currently takes 12% of a person's pay for retirement. (6% from paycheck, 6% from employer). How about giving ME MY MONEY and let me deal with it? If I spend it on bling bling wheels for my car, then so be it. If I put it into a 401K, great.


A good example is GE, who properly funded their pension plan, one of the largest pension plans in the US. Their assets outweigh future liability 2:1. They haven't even had to contribute to their pension fund since 1988
So what, you're pro-corporation because GE handled their pension plan well? Other companies made bad decisions. One major recommendation for retirement is to NOT have all your eggs in one basket. A pension plan with an employer is one of those situations. Steel worker or Airline workers who lost their jobs AND their pensions at retirement age?


Unions are important especially for unskilled manual laborers, as these workers typically have no leverage for wage control. If there were no unions cars would be built by illegal immigrants paid $1 an hour and we'd all be living in slums. What did your father/grandfather do for work?
I come from a family of truck drivers. Maybe that's why they are so anti-union, actually having to actually deal with the unions? My father is a retired teamster. Not because he wanted to be in the union, but because he had no choice. Not join the union, no job. Meanwhile all he saw was corruption. It was even worse before container shipments started.

I'm certainly not anti-union, but in it's large form in industries it does little good. I see electricians who make $42 an hour. Seems great until you realize they're out of a job 1/2 of the year or worse.

Unions currently are great in smaller arenas. For instance municipalities have great working unions. Workers like librarians, janitors, secretaries, maintenance workers etc bargaining for one for wages/benefits. They don't have the attitude of "Screw our bosses". It works out better for both the municipalities and the workers.

The problems are mostly found in the manufacturing areas and in construction any anything government controlled.

The unions have shot themselves in the foot in the manufacturing sector. We're not talking about the workers uniting to help themselves. The unions are run not by workers but people who are out for THEIR best interests making half a million a year.

And to respond to the point about NJ laws being lax and workers can be fired for wearing the wrong colored shoes:

My last company was like that. The owners are completely nuts and would fire people on the spot for complete oddities. One coworker didn't want to help his boss move furniture on a Sunday and was fired the next week for it.

Protect those workers jobs? No. Thanks to the market economy, that company is out of business due to loosing all their good employees due to them quitting. In countries were it's impossible to fire employees it's a disincentive to actually hire new employees.

Look at Nestle in France. They had a court order to NOT close their money loosing plant as it would put the workers out of work. How much more investment do you think Nestle is going to put into France?

-Steve in NJ

[satanpez]

i'll answer your question in detail when the guy in the office next to me gets here. he's an authority on railroads.
we had a discussion about it a few months ago, and off the top of my head it was moscow and japan who had profitable railroad systems.

one of our problems here is how old our stuff is. moscow and japan got to do it from the ground up with modern technology and it started out as one project. our railroad system here is a clooge. i mean look how broad street isn't connected to newark penn. they were 2 seperate comapnies, with even more companies across the river in new york. now its just MTA and path but it was many more before.

if we let a private company RUN the program, backed with multistate cooperation in terms of track and land rights and standardized the whole thing it would make a ton of money.
right now in this area we have:
MTA
LIRR
PATH
JFK monorail
the tram to rosevelt island
NJT
AMTRAK
newark city subway
NJT light rail (looks like an above ground subway, even though regular njt is classified as light rail also)

if all those trains could run on all those tracks and take the same currency, AND you ditched the govt bullshit spending like they do now, it would turn a profit, or break even and it would be worth it to take the train.
like i said, it takes maria $16 to get to work and back. its cheaper to drive there. especially considering i have to drop her off and pick her up from newark anyway.

FYI, many of the current railroad companies were private at one time. It was a failure, but at least it was people volunteering to take the risk of failure as opposed to the government. I'm willing to bet NJ railroads lost less money under private ownership than under NJ Transit.

It's hard to compare mass transit in cities and non-cities. In cities it's much easier to be profitable as you can provide service to a large number of riders with less infrastructure. In suburbia a government organization will mandate having trains run at a loss to certain areas just to provide service.

-Steve in NJ

[satanpez]

One thing about charter schools.

I personally think charter schools are a good thing. But, obviously NJ can fuck that up. Schools are something that DO need to be regulated.

In most areas charter schools would not be needed and there isn't a push for them. It's mostly an issue in urban areas where the school systems are fucked up. I think they work better when it's not the state pushing for the school but the school district.

A place like Blairstown would see that their school system is more or less functioning great and there's no need for a charter school.

A place like Newark with the amount of students and the horrible academic performance could take the money and put it into charter schools along with the students. In Blairstown, like Nate stated, taking 11 students out of a mishmosh of classes that were fine to begin with does nothing. In Newark they could take 500 students out of the public school system and started a REAL school.

Charter schools aren't meant to be glorified home schooling. They are meant to be actual schools that are privatized. And charter schools don't necessarily need to be NEW schools.

I prefer a voucher setup where if the state is paying 8k per student per year, they'd give parents a voucher to send the kid to another school for let's say $5k or so. They could send them to a better private school in the area. One that actually needs to pass the same tests as a public school.

What happened in Blairstown sounds like some sort of hippie school where they care more about the kid's feelings than anything else.

My girlfriend went two one of those when she was younger. Fucked her up.

-Steve in NJ

[atc250r]

Thanks to the market economy, that company is out of business due to loosing all their good employees due to them quitting.

But how many workers were financially screwed when they lost their job because of it? When I was fired from a job a couple of years ago for a bullshit reason it was no biggie since I was able to collect the full $490 a week from NJ unemployment, my wife was working, and I had an $800 a month income from an invesment property I own. If it wasn't for those things I'd have been in a really bad situation thanks to some lunatic manager who was pissed that I told him that some shit was going on in the shop that I thought wasn't right but since it involved his "buddies" I ended up being out on my ass.

John

[gtluke]

why is the employee more protected than the owner? the owner is the one giving you a job. if it wasn't for him, asshole or not you might not have a job. when you start protecting the workers by demanding things from the owner, jobs start going to mexico and india.

there is no right to have security in a job or finances. hell there is no right to have a job at all. of course there are laws in place to protect you from abuse.
it would be a different story if our economy and jobs were all fucked up like some small island cultures where the people have no choice, or jamaica where an economy was forced on them.

i'm talking about right here right now. if you arn't happy with your job its pretty easy to find another one. it may not sound easy, but in comparison to what the rest of the world has to deal with, its damn easy to find a good job here.

[satanpez]

But how many workers were financially screwed when they lost their job because of it? When I was fired from a job a couple of years ago for a bullshit reason it was no biggie since I was able to collect the full $490 a week from NJ unemployment, my wife was working, and I had an $800 a month income from an invesment property I own. If it wasn't for those things I'd have been in a really bad situation thanks to some lunatic manager who was pissed that I told him that some shit was going on in the shop that I thought wasn't right but since it involved his "buddies" I ended up being out on my ass.

John

It's not great, but look at the long term picture. Would you rather be out of work from a horrible job, or be guaranteed a job at that company at a low pay? The current system is more efficient.

I would imagine firings like that are less at large corporations than small companies.

-Steve in NJ

[DrSmile]

Satan Steve is back!

I don't know how this got to be about Germany, but before comparing apples to oranges, I'd just like to point out a few things:

1) Germany absorbed a country financially destitute 15 years ago, with 60 year old infrastructure and no modern economy to speak of for a population half the size of (then) West Germany. What would the unemployment be in the US if we tried to absorb Canada and give all those people jobs here in the US?

2) Germany counts you as unemployed if you are UNEMPLOYED. The US only counts you as unemployed if you are LOOKING for work.

3) Germany's poverty rate is 8.5%. In the USA it is 18.7%, the highest percentage of any modern country.

4) If you are unemployed in Germany, the government helps you get a new job by providing start up cost loans for entrepreneurs and small businessed. If you stay unemployed they will pay unemployment for up to 2 years.

5) We kicked Costa Rica's butt today 4-2 :):):)

[DrSmile]

Oh and btw Germany's car industry did pretty well without Henry ford.

[satanpez]

Satan Steve is back!

I don't know how this got to be about Germany, but before comparing apples to oranges, I'd just like to point out a few things:

1) Germany absorbed a country financially destitute 15 years ago, with 60 year old infrastructure and no modern economy to speak of for a population half the size of (then) West Germany. What would the unemployment be in the US if we tried to absorb Canada and give all those people jobs here in the US?

2) Germany counts you as unemployed if you are UNEMPLOYED. The US only counts you as unemployed if you are LOOKING for work.

3) Germany's poverty rate is 8.5%. In the USA it is 18.7%, the highest percentage of any modern country.

4) If you are unemployed in Germany, the government helps you get a new job by providing start up cost loans for entrepreneurs and small businessed. If you stay unemployed they will pay unemployment for up to 2 years.

5) We kicked Costa Rica's butt today 4-2 :):):)

1) We're doing a fine job of absorbing Mexico, I think Canada wouldn't be a problem.

2) I thought Germany and the rest of Europe stopped doing that in the mid or early 90's? I could be wrong. How much would that decrease the gap if I'm wrong?

3) But what percentage of the population is living just slightly above that? We could sit here all day going "Germany has this better" or "The US has this better" I'm not anti-Germany. They're not ALL socialists. :)

4) In the US it's called the Small Business Administration. They provide loans. Our tax structure is more likely to spur small businesses than European.

5) Soccer?

I'm just annoyed because noone wants to do dinner at Don Jose or somewhere. Let's all go drinking so I can make a fool of myself like at Utah's Party.

-Steve

[satanpez]

Oh and btw Germany's car industry did pretty well without Henry ford.

Is that why you drive the Ford of Germany?

-Steve

I had to!

[gtluke]

isn't ford the top selling brand in europe?

[DrSmile]

So is Opel, no idea why that is... oh yeah I do, because GM actually sells nice cars over there!

[gtluke]

when was the last time you drove a GM car that cost as much as either one of your cars?
or any gm car for that matter?

[DrSmile]

I drove a rental Sebring last year, pretty horrific all the way around, including interior / exterior / engine / transmission / suspension. It costs less than the Evo but more then the TDI. I also rented a Chevy Cobalt a few weeks ago and it was a hunk-o-junk, although admittedly that is a lower price segment car. To be fair I've also rented a 3G Mitsu Spyder (Florida 2 years ago) and it was a steaming pile. Rentals in general suck. I think I would consider a 300 if I was 10... ok 30 years older. :roll:

[DrSmile]

Found a great source of information on income from the Census Bureau:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2005pubs/p60-229.pdf

check out figure 2, Page 14. It shows the average male income in 2004 is the SAME as it was in 1973. How can anyone possibly be dense enough not to realize that the average person has been getting ripped off by corporations in the last 30 years based on that data? Considering the rate of inflation, on average people have about 50% less income now than they had in 1973.

[DrSmile]

Correction, that figure shows adjusted income taking into consideration inflation rates. Still crazy that the income hasn't improved in 30 years.

[gtluke]

but costs of goods has dropped dramaticly.

right, so you haven't driven a gm to even come close to comparing it to anything else. you are just making baseless remarks you probably learned watching bill mahr.

a cobalt is what? $13,000 out the door? both your cars are more than double that price. shit if it lasts half as long you are still ahead of the game.

the sebring is a dodge. dodge sells junk. you would know because you had a 2g which is 1/2 the same parts as the sebring. yet i don't recall you calling that car a piece of shit.

you are never going to like GM cars. they arn't your style and they won't have the feel you are after. its the same reason i don't but them. but its the same reason a ton of other people DO like them. GM actually "gasp" designes their transmissions to have equal length axles. instead of torque steer madness like a honda.

i was a mechanic for 10 years. i'm going to guess that 35% of the cars i saw were japanese, 35% were american, and 30% were german with some jags mixed in there. the oldest cars in my fleet were 90% amercian cars. GM A bodies. fucking fantastic car. when i left there were still some people daily driving 20 year old GM A bodies. i had an elderly customer park his older buick in his garage one day and forget to turn it off. when he cam back to it the next day, it was still running. 15+ hours later idling perfectly in his garage. old people like to keep their tanks full, and thankfully it was a detached garage. i'd say i did twice as much motor work on japanese cars, and 3 times as much electrical and sensor work on german cars. american cars usually needed more "bullshit" work like fuel pressure regulators, tie rod ends, sway bar end links.. hardly ever stuff that kept the car from running.

but i bought a hyundai. build by slave labor just the way i like it. the japanese can't even afford to own a car. but its perfectly acceptable to continue that big business right? because we can't see it happening.

i may not be able to buy a house like my father did at my age, but i also own 3 cars, 2 computers and a laptop and a 50" top of the line high def television.

annoy a liberal - work hard and be happy

[DrSmile]

Ok Luke, you are now officially on crack.

Cost of goods have dropped dramatically? Do you even know what the rate of inflation is. Go look up the consumer price index. Better yet look it up here:

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/home.htm

And the table of historical CPIs:

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/cpi/cpiai.txt

Before you start spouting BULL about that not being an indicator, it's used be EVERY MAJOR INVESTMENT FIRM!

The Sebring is a Chrysler. What cars does GM make that I should be driving? You want me to drive a Town and Country? Or maybe a Pacifica made by MB? Or a PT Cruiser? Give me a break.

[helite99]

Town and Country?.

sorry still a dodge... err chrysler


GM vans are the venture(chevy) montana (pontiac) and the caddilac of all minivans the sillohette (olds) they might have re-named the montana

[gtluke]

a buick lucerne is around the the same price as a jetta
and a pontiac gto is around the same price and market as your evo

GM doesn't own chrysler. chrysler is paired with mercedes now which included chrysler, dodge, jeep and formerly eagle and plymouth.

GM owns chevrolet, pontiac, buick, GMC, hummer, saturn, cadillac, half of subaru, saab, and formerly oldsmobile, some of isuzu too, and AM general.

ford own mercury, lincoln, half of mazda, aston martin, jaguar, land rover, and volvo.

[gtluke]

and rene, i'm talking relative. the cost of a pair of pants has not risen at the same rate as inflation. well maybe if you buy fancy smancy designer jeans.
but in the last 10 years, the cost of a pair of dickies slacks has not gone up a single dollar.
but 10 years ago i didn't have a cell phone and a plan, a computer and internet and newsgroup plans. but i don't think my salary should be increased because i find it something i want. if in 5 years everyone on earth has satallite radio and feel inferior because i dont, is it the responsibility of my employer to raise my salary of everyone in my office so we can all afford it without having to sacrifice anything else?

we have soooooo much more "stuff" now

look, you canceled your cable television because its so expensive right? how about 30 years ago when my parents were my age. can you imagine a kid today not having cable television and a cell phone?
thats $200 a month for a small family in added on crap we didn't have one generation ago.

[gtluke]

speaking of 10 years ago. how much was a PC then? i remember my father paying something like $2200 for our 2nd pc
today you can order one from dell for $400
televisions are retarded cheap. pennies on the dollar of what they were 50 years ago. same with vcr's and dvd players. a dvd player is what? $40
i remember my first vcr, my father paid $1,000 for it.

i'm perfectly happy with the way "things" are right now. and i'm the wage earner you seem to be defending.

if you are so unhappy with the rates of pay of the working class you should walk into your office on monday and double the salary of the people working in your office. did your secretary buy herself 2 brand new cars this year too?

why on earth would you pay your secretary even half of what you make? but thre are union auto workers bolting doors on cars that make more money a year than the engineers designing the cars.
if you had to pay your dental assistant equal wage of a union electrician with the same experience in the field (but the electrician didn't have to go to school at all) you wouldn't even have an asistant. you would do it yourself for that kind of money, putting that person out of work.
i dare you to go pay an unschooled worker in your office $85,000 to clean up after you. if you think thats a good idea, you should welcome union positions into your office.

[DrSmile]

You obviously have no idea about the cost of living... because you pay nothing to live where you live!

The CPI includes what most people (consumers) pay to buy (price index) on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. This includes:

electricity
natural gas
fuel oil
gasoline
bread
beef
chicken
eggs
apples
oranges
bananas
tomatoes
orange juice
coffee
lettuce

It doesn't include fancy stuff like cable tv, which the average US citizen DOES NOT HAVE. In 2004, there were a TOTAL of only 26 million cable subscriber households.

What you are talking about is disposible income spending. Imagine yourself having to pay rent, buy food, pay for a car and car insurance, heat, electricity, water, etc. on your current salary. How much disposable income would you have left? When you spend most of your money on living necessities, and the majority of people do as the median household (not per person) income is $44K, the CPI has a huge impact on your wallet.

[gtluke]

i could definately live on my income. just not in west orange.
census is only available till 1999, and at that time median family income here was $83,000
i'm sure its over 100k by now.
but i don't need to live in this rich ass town.

but i just started "working" this year. i don't expect to be able to afford to buy a house my first year of employment, and certainly not around here.
the only thing i don't pay is rent. if i didn't live here i wouldn't be paying for a $4,000 television or a $3,500 hyundai + insurance that maria drives.
at that point i think i have rent covered. i feed myself more than well, and live in more than luxury with all my toys. i will be willing to sacrifice my toys when it comes to living. i just lucked out and i don't need to right now.

so are you going to support your "cause" and start paying your employee's what you are wishing they got paid (if they weren't your employees)? or are you just going to pay them what they are worth like everyone else?

[rsk_wannabe]

<-- [chomp chomp chomp... eating popcorn 8) ]

So tempted to add my .02 but do not dare for fear of ruining a beautiful thing:

political, social, economic debate/discourse from two intelligent and well respected members.

[DrSmile]

FYI good dental assistants get paid over $20 an hour, and hygienists get something like $35 (may be higher by now, I don't employ any).

What the hell is "my cause?" Hookers for everyone? :lol:

[helite99]

What the hell is "my cause?" Hookers for everyone? :lol:


HORRRRRRRRRRAYYYYYYYYYYYYY HOOOOKERS

[rsk_wannabe]

Two basic observations in my relatively (as compaed to the average age of the NJDSM community membership) long lived existence:

1) The world (aka life) is not fair... never was, never will be. [At least not in the immediate sense; the metaphysical forces of fate however has its own unique way of balancing things out :wink: ];

2) Complaining about the situation will never resolve the situation;

The secret to happiness is not to make/have the most, but to learn to be satisfied (truly satisfied) with what you have. Not really a big secret but so elusive to sincerely achieve. I still struggle with this sometimes...

Oh, one more observation....

3) Realizing what truly matters in life seems to get easier as you get older. For those who feel that they are always on the short end of the stick, evaluate why you feel that way and find out if those things that are so seemingly important should have the high priority you place on them.

Then consider how other people around the world live and see if you still feel that way. To help place things in perspective, watch a few of those Sunday morning infomercials on the plight of aids ravaged continents and the children left behind. Then if you want to feel good about yourself, do something about it. $10/month? Seems so much cheaper than therapy.

Is that too low salary which prevents you from getting the latest and greatest gadget or sports car while the person who dropped out of high school seems to be able to get whatever he/she wants really so unbearable?

Is that gf/bf, or other family personal or financial matter/crisis really insurmountable or does our pride get in the way of doing what needs to be done.... doing what is "right"?

Are you starving? Do you have a roof over your head? Do you have your health? Can you enoy the gift of another day to help make someone's day better? If you answer these questions honestly, I submit that life is pretty good.

If you understand my points above, perhaps the normal cyclical economic trends or political differences we inevitably encounter really do not have as big a hold on our ability to enjoy life or define our existence. If, on the other hand, those macro factors docarry that much weight in your persona, well, then (as I have said before) run for office and provide viable alternatives to the age old union vs non-union arguments/ conservative vs liberal differences, instead of complaining about the status quo. Or, even more simply, exercise your right to vote (by first becoming a citizen ;)), and elect that candidate who shares your personal beliefs most closely. Any more effort on arguing for either side is unlikely to result in changing an equally passionate person's opinion.

Know that I am not trying to censor free speech by that last comment, just making yet another observation. (4) The only value that Luke's, Rene's, or my views have are to evidence how the ability to freely exchange ideas is what separates our free society from other societies. Perhaps through such discussions, people sitting on the fence may gather more information and decide what "way" works for "them".

Sorry about interjecting in this heated debate, but you know me..... Expecting me to remain quiet on these types of topics is akin to expecting Luke to subcribe to the NPR website or Rene trading his Evo for a cavalier. It simply ain't gonna happen.

[gtluke]

i thought your cause was to ensure higher salary for everyone because average salary was difficult to live on?

[DrSmile]

I never said I was for any such thing. You keep on getting off track. My "position" is that corporation rip you off if they're not controlled. That's where I started this thread, with the $22 car insurance companies pay out. Insurance companies, oil companies, communication companies, they all have a de facto monopoly in their particular area. My "position" is that there are many areas where laissez faire economics do not work, like healthcare, schools, infrastructure, elderly care, etc. I am all for the open market, but there have to be some controls in certain areas.

As for average incomes, yes it would be beneficial to me for the middle class to have more disposable income, as my profession and I rely exactly on this disposable income for my personal income. How much I pay my employees is an extremely small part of my overhead, and I pay them quite well. I am quite sure that most corporations generally have the same overhead percentages.

[satanpez]

When are we all going out for Mexican?

-Steve

[DrSmile]

To illustrate, here is GM's annual 2005 report regarding financials. Remember they're one of the sorporations complaining the MOST about paying benefits:

http://www.gm.com/company/investor_info ... ncials.pdf (http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/docs/fin_data/gm05ar/download/gm05arfinancials.pdf)

2005 Worldwide Income: 158 Billion dollars
2005 Worldwide Pension and "other" Benefits Paid: 11.8 Billion dollars (this is inflated because it includes employee contributions)
2005 Worldwide Wages Paid: 21.5 Billion dollars

So labor costs including all benefits totals 20% of income. I would say I have about the same costs. And somehow I am making a living.

[rsk_wannabe]

Insurance companies, oil companies, communication companies, they all have a de facto monopoly in their particular area. My "position" is that there are many areas where laissez faire economics do not work, like healthcare, schools, infrastructure, elderly care, etc. I am all for the open market, but there have to be some controls in certain areas.

Mixing corporations and social services. There are (presumedly) rules that prevent so called defacto monopolies or more correctly oligopolies (since there are more than one company in each industry). It is called the Sherman Anti-trust Act. WRT healthcare, schools, etc, those are not run by corporations (although some would argue they should be) but instead by the government (state and/or federal). Certainly not laissez faire. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=laissez%20faire%20) At least that is not what I believe most people complain about. If anything, people feel there is too much state involvement in these areas.

If you are dissatisfied with the way your region's school system or the national healthcare or social security is being managed by the government, see my comment above about voting for a candidate that best meets your desired objectives (i.e. Hillary Clinton for healthcare reform?)

There are areas where corporations and social issues will overlap (i.e. minimum wage, unions, and yes I'll say it immigration issues), and in those cases I would say there will have to be a meeting of the minds, but the government will be the final arbiter.

[rsk_wannabe]

To illustrate, here is GM's annual 2005 report regarding financials. Remember they're one of the sorporations complaining the MOST about paying benefits:

http://www.gm.com/company/investor_info ... ncials.pdf (http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/docs/fin_data/gm05ar/download/gm05arfinancials.pdf)

2005 Worldwide Income: 158 Billion dollars
2005 Worldwide Pension and "other" Benefits Paid: 11.8 Billion dollars (this is inflated because it includes employee contributions)
2005 Worldwide Wages Paid: 21.5 Billion dollars

So labor costs including all benefits totals 20% of income. I would say I have about the same costs. And somehow I am making a living.

[Devil's Advocate mode on :twisted: ]So if your staff unionized and decided to picket your office and claim mistreatment based on your keeping 80% of the practice's profits, that would be okay?

It was your efforts to study and learn your profession and your risk-taking that enabled you to begin (okay "continue") a practice and you will be the one that bears 100% of the responsibility to creditors should you not be able to continue making profits based on the walk-out of employees.

So great, you decide to increase everyone's salary so that now you pay out 50% of the practice's profits for labor. Everyone is happy right? Well, maybe, but you soon realize that you are the one that is doing the lion's share of the work, paying all of the overhead, taking all of the risks, and the 30% loss just does not make all of your efforts worth it. Especially since Dr. Schmucatello next door has hired his niece to run the office for peanuts (cheap labor) and can undercut your prices (although arguably not nearly with the same level of DrSmile expertise :D ). So you are at a crossroads: continue to operate at the going pace and hope that things work out or close shop and join another practice as an associate where you would make about as much as your 50% profit but with no headaches.

Let's not forget the costs of new technology which may come up and for which you would be in no position to obtain the training or buy the equipment since the extra 30% you graciously shared with the employees is no longer available in your coffers.

Does life suck for your employees simply because you are unable or unwilling to give them a bigger salary? Perhaps. But if they are unhappy, we presume they will be able to move on to another job for which they can be justly compensated. If they are not skilled in anything else, then certainly they may opt for the unionize option, but we have already seen what the possible outcome could be...

I realize that unions do provide a way to multiply the bargaining power of the single blue collar worker and that this is not necessarily a bad thing. I also recognize that coporate America has not improved much (and may even have gotten worse) from the days of child sweat shops, unsafe coal mines, and Wallstreet's Greed is Good mantra. But not sure how your example strengthens your position.

[DrSmile]

You're missing my point papa smurf... GM pays an average $81 an hour (it's in the financial statement). They have lots of unionized employees. Even paying those high wages the wages and benefits only total 20% of income. My point was that paying employees salaries and benefits isn't what's killing GM.

Unionizing my office isn't realistic. I have 2 employees. And I didn't say profit. I said INCOME. If I was keeping 80% of the profit they'd have every right to strike.

[Utah Joe]

BTW, I thought Attel was AWSOME live!!!!!!! He was doing tons of inprov with the crowd and it was great. After the show My girlfriend and I met him and got some pictures. It was an awesome show. Good trip. Went to the smithsonian, and saw all the sights. Cool trip.

[gtluke]

i don't think any of us are even remotely qualified to discuss the books of one of the world's largest companies.
just because the breakdown works for your company doesn't mean it works for GM.

i mean they spend billions in materials, and almost own as much land as ted kennedy.

[satanpez]

Unionizing my office isn't realistic. I have 2 employees. And I didn't say profit. I said INCOME. If I was keeping 80% of the profit they'd have every right to strike.

I think that's it right there in a nutshell why it'll just be argument over argument over this. You feel the employee is owed something.

I think me/luke/utah could care less what our bosses were making. We don't feel entitled to the fruits of their labor. I can care less if my boss is scraping by or making a fortune as long as I'm paid what I'm worth. If I wanted a part of the profits I'd either be in business for myself or be heavily invested in a business through stocks.

What's the story, you buy shares of Lucent instead of Exxon?

Seriously tho, the our basic views on this are so opposed you're not going to wakeup tommorow loving the libertarian ideals and we're not going to wakeup thinking like you do. Let's stop arguing and get mexican food. I want mexican. Have I made myself fucking clear here?

-Steve

[rsk_wannabe]

What happened to the response I provided at lunch time? Dang, I guess I forgot to hit the submit key after the preview. Well, needless to say it was a lengthy retort to Rene's last post... but as Steve/Satan intimates, there will be no end to this debate since we are basically all a bunch of extremely stubborn SOBs. Mexican sounds good. Who's organizing the outing? I'll pick up the first round of Coronas. Or a pitcher of margueritas for the liberals in the group. LOL :lol:

[lucassays]

im a proud union member of Local 3 of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

[satanpez]

im a proud union member of Local 3 of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

I like to wear felt hats.

[gtluke]

im a proud union member of Local 3 of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

haha i work with local 3
they are fucking HORRIBLE
they hire anyone.

[DrSmile]

im a proud union member of Local 3 of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

I like to wear felt hats.

You like to wear felt underwear.

I'm in for messican... where/when?

[gtluke]

don jose!`

[Utah Joe]

you fuckers, 1am and I have not even left my office yet. oh well, OT baby!!!!!!! Nothing like 17 hours behind a computer. But my record is 32 hours, so I am not even close yet. :lol:

[Nate Crisman]

I gotta agree with Pappa Smurf. We can all bitch and moan about it, but in comparason to the large majority of the world, we have it good in this country/age. We can all afford to buy cars, dump tons of money on them, own computer, play on the internet, ect.

No one single one of us is wondering if they are going to eat tonight.

And watching those sat morning infomercials do make me feel like a dickbag for not giving more to help people who do face real problems like food and shelter. Unfortunatly, most of those charities are run like corperations where advertizing/management compensation/overhead far outpaces the actual product cost. You donate $100 to them thinking your going to cloth and feed someone in nigeria. In reality that dirty dude in the desert got $1.20 and the 98.80 remainder went to payrolls and more TV commercials to generate more income.

[lucassays]

im a proud union member of Local 3 of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers

haha i work with local 3
they are fucking HORRIBLE
they hire anyone.

it used to be a father son deal where if you had a relative in you automatically got in. that is no longer. the process to get in was extremely difficult. 20,000 applied and took an sat style test. there were questions about adjacent pronouns on the test. out of the test takers the people with the best scores were then interviewed. then they were chosen for the first class. the first class of 150 started their 5.5 years of schooling on electrical theory in august. they started working a few months after. also they are obligated to take college classes as well. those who do not have associates degrees must earn one and those who already have them have an option to get their bachelors or masters. this is all paid for by the union. if someone fails to pass their classes they can be kicked out of the union. a second class of 150 started electrical theory and college classes in january and have yet to be put to work. im proud to say i was one of the 150 chosen in the first class. dont talk about things that you dont know about luke. local 3 is not horrible. we have the best electricians in the world. if you want to go anywhere and become an electrician and you say your from new york city local 3 of the ibew and were schooled in their training program you will get tremendous respect for your knowledge.

[gtluke]

^
wtf?
how can this be the same union that fried 3 power supplies of mine because the stupid electricians don't understand the difference between control wiring and power wiring.

they put 120v ac into my 24vdc control wiring THREE times on the same project.
DON'T PUT POWER ON THE BLUE WIRES ASSHOLES
i seriously have to babysit them or they blow my shit up.
i also got 220v in my panel blowing out all the light bulbs. wonderful.

they are also the only assholes that freak out when i start touching wires. its the only time they have ever made a phone call trying to start a strike because i was wiring some shit. i don't have the time to wait for their slow stupid asses to do it. plus i can do it MUCH neater and not fry stuff because i can read an electrical schematic. usually i just wait till 3:30 and do it myself when they already went home.

[lucassays]

^
wtf?
how can this be the same union that fried 3 power supplies of mine because the stupid electricians don't understand the difference between control wiring and power wiring.

they put 120v ac into my 24vdc control wiring THREE times on the same project.
DON'T PUT POWER ON THE BLUE WIRES ASSHOLES
i seriously have to babysit them or they blow my shit up.
i also got 220v in my panel blowing out all the light bulbs. wonderful.

they are also the only assholes that freak out when i start touching wires. its the only time they have ever made a phone call trying to start a strike because i was wiring some shit. i don't have the time to wait for their slow stupid asses to do it. plus i can do it MUCH neater and not fry stuff because i can read an electrical schematic. usually i just wait till 3:30 and do it myself when they already went home.

dont know the whole story so i cant comment on that problem your having. theres two sides to every story. ive been in situations like your describing and the person in your position has given faulty instructions and not realized it or just plain simple miscomunication. just to let you know, you doing the electrical work is illegal on the job and if anything were to happen because of it you would be liable. i wouldnt reccomend it. if your caught doing it youll be sorry. its not your job and if your employer hired local 3 workers they are the only ones allowed to do electrical work on the job. your employer would not be pleased with you doing it. why risk your own ass doing something your not paid to do and not allowed to do. your employer will not be greatfull for you doing it, if something were to happen they would just point the finger at you and blame you for doing something you werent allowed to. thats why we are licenced and insured.

[gtluke]

its completely legal. the only backlash is when you union fuckfaces decide i'm taking your job and you strike.

the electricians have contract drawings to follow just like me. all they have to do is match one number to another with a piece of wire.

local 3 = "whats that smoking?"

at one site alone they fried my plc with 220, my heater controls with 30vac, two TWO 30vdc power supply with 120vac coming into the output, like 25 lights on the front of the panel with 220vac.
not to mention i got electricuted like THREE FUCKING TIMES because they put 110v on my 24vdc control wiring.

the only thing worse than union 3 guys is the NYC DEP assfucks. they scrape the bottom of the barrel for those engineers.

[lucassays]

now you just sound like a fool. blatantly insulting groups of people. my guess is your jealous of what they make? the benfits they have? how much do you get paid in comparison to local 3 men? im curious because i bet that might have something to do with why you dislike them so much.

[gtluke]

i make more than them and i don't have to strongarm my paycheck.

[satanpez]

I can somewhat attest to Luke's anger being justified. :)

My last job was with an electrical contractor, 164&3, most of our work was in NYC. About half was low voltage, alarm & security, the other half was high voltage. My current job I'm constantly dealing with union and non union electricians in NYC, Westchester and Northern NJ.

It's a mixed bag, many times I work with great electricians, many times I don't. Often both on the same site. One of my bigger projects right now is in Brooklyn, Local 3 site with 3 electrical contractors that I deal with on site (mostly 2 out of those 3).

One company all the work is done great and professional, only a few problems which they took care of. The second I hardly deal with. The third is a minority owned contractor with about 10-14 guys on the job. (I'm assuming they don't want 15 as they end up with a 2nd electrician they're paying to not touch his tools)

The main part of the crew is not so bad. Slow, but they know their stuff. The other half, guys they pulled off the bench as the job got bigger are absolutely horrible. They can't do simple tasks like pulling cable or simple wire terminations. Many times I go into a panel and nothing is labeled on either ends. I end up spending hours upon hours troubleshooting and fixing their mistakes. Often it's easier for me to fix the problems than talking with the foreman and having him fix them.

Now this contractor is nearly bankrupt and has walked off the job once already due to lack of money. Which is quite common as when an electrical job like this starts to get bigger the guys coming off the bench are absolutely horrible. It's hard to get much work done when you're paying a full day's worth of work for what amounts to less than 6 hours of actual electrical work.

The problem is if an electrician does his job, it's good. If he fucks up, it's usually a BAD fuckup. A few bad apples ruins it for everyone, and there always seems to be a few bad apples.

And on my jealousy of Local 3, I could be in Local 3, I was actually an H Technician with Local 3 and could have gotten in through my previous employer's connections. I decided to be an engineer instead and do not regret it one bit.

Also, many times I have to do electrical work on site for many reasons. It's cost prohibitive having an electrician do it, inconvenient and many times I do it better. Many times I don't do the work because of the union BS and I don't have much of a problem with it. On most sites the guys don't have a problem with me wiring, it's typically easier for them since I'm working on more complicated systems than they are used to. They know I'm not going to take their job away.

I find that electricians typically aren't skilled in low voltage & controls wiring, especcially ones that come off the bench. Electricians that work for contractors that specialize in it do a great job. I've seen it working for an electricial contractor. What do you do when you need more men on a job? Are you supposed to train them? It costs over $100 each hour an electrician is on a jobsite, they should come with the knowledge necessary. I fault the Union because they're supposed to do the training, that's part of the system.

Most guys are fine with bending pipe, pulling cable and doing basic terminations. Many cannot understand fiber, 24VAC, 24VDC, coax, etc found in alarms/controls/security.

-Steve in NJ

[lucassays]

i make more than them and i don't have to strongarm my paycheck.

how do we strong arm our paychecks? we come together to bargain for better wages and benefits then we would get if we all tried on our own. customers have the choice to choose union over non union construction. the quality is better from union as opposed to non union. we have higher standards and better training. our quality is better and thats why we are chosen over non union workers. companies arent forced to hire union construction. they make the decision.

[satanpez]

how do we strong arm our paychecks? we come together to bargain for better wages and benefits then we would get if we all tried on our own. customers have the choice to choose union over non union construction. the quality is better from union as opposed to non union. we have higher standards and better training. our quality is better and thats why we are chosen over non union workers. companies arent forced to hire union construction. they make the decision.

Definately strongarmed. As I stated earlier, I have no problem with groups coming together to bargain, I think it's good, and often times helps both parties.

But try to have a construction project anywhere in NYC that doesn't involve Union labor that's of any size. ANY government project. Tell me you can hire Union electricians but not Union Painters or Union Laborers? How about having a truck make deliveries that wasn't Union?

The Unions don't just force companies and the government to go all union on jobsites, but they force the workers to be in the union. Just try to work at a union jobsite without being in the union.

-Steve

[lucassays]

satanpez i agree with you completely that there are incompentent members of local 3. there is a big push to weed them out lately because we dont want a few bad apples to ruin our good reputation. things are changing in the local and guys like that can no longer slip through.

[lucassays]

how do we strong arm our paychecks? we come together to bargain for better wages and benefits then we would get if we all tried on our own. customers have the choice to choose union over non union construction. the quality is better from union as opposed to non union. we have higher standards and better training. our quality is better and thats why we are chosen over non union workers. companies arent forced to hire union construction. they make the decision.

Definately strongarmed. As I stated earlier, I have no problem with groups coming together to bargain, I think it's good, and often times helps both parties.

But try to have a construction project anywhere in NYC that doesn't involve Union labor that's of any size. ANY government project. Tell me you can hire Union electricians but not Union Painters or Union Laborers? How about having a truck make deliveries that wasn't Union?

The Unions don't just force companies and the government to go all union on jobsites, but they force the workers to be in the union. Just try to work at a union jobsite without being in the union.

-Steve

there are alot of non union job sites in the city currently. we are trying to change that and get the work back though. we do not strong arm to get the contracts. our contractors bid on them just as non union contractors do. like i stated earlier we are chosen because our quality of work is better. on many jobs the entire job is union so that is why they do not take deliveries from non union workers. its a courtesy to other unions. on my job i refuse to take deliveries from non union truck drivers. thats not strong arming, thats just sticking together. no worker is forced to be union. no worker who correctly understands what a union is or how it works in the contruction industry would not want to be in the union in their right mind. we get paid properly and recieve benefits. non union workers do not get paid properly and do not recieve benefits. PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND WITH THE TYPICAL UNINFORMED RESPONSE OF BUT YOU HAVE TO PAY UNION DUES and make like the union is stealing from the workers. i pay a whopping 160 dollars a year in union dues. that goes to helping out with union activities and training programs. my benefits are paid by the employer. workers are exploited by employers because they are greedy. its human nature i guess. employers want to make more money and they dont care if they pay their workers crap wages and dont give them benefits. if they can get away with it and people will work for such low wages they will do it. just because they do it and people allow themselves to be exploited does not mean it is right. thats what unions do. they try to minimize the employers power advantage over the labor. employers are rich and can hold out and refuse to pay proper wages to workers. a single worker cannot survive this because he will be undercut by his fellow worker because his fellow worker is in a dire situation trying to survive. when workers unite and come together they are agreeing not to undercut one another and therefore they cannot be pitted against one another by the employer to benefit the employer. i am not just a union worker. i was a labor studies major at queens college. this country was built and thrived on the backs of union workers.

[DrSmile]

One of my original points was that the corporate mindset has somehow managed to completely vilify the concept of workers uniting to push for improved work conditions. A new generation has been indoctrinated to identify any such efforts as almost a Pavlovian evil. It's totally emotionally based and defies rational thought, especially since most of the younger people would greatly benefit from such actions. People under age 35 have the LOWEST percentage of health care coverage. Many people under age 30 still live at home, something unheard of 30 years ago. I equate it to the dirt poor Southern "hick" population voting Republican because they push their religious buttons. I don't know how they did it, but it's brilliant.

[rsk_wannabe]

Valid points on both sides. Clearly, all persons simply approach this issue from their own experiences. Thus, you have some who have bad experiences having a distinct distrust over the benefits of unions. Those belonging to and benefiting from unions feel that unions are the equalizing force behind corporate greed. Although I can agree that US history will show unions to be a large part of its success as an industrialized nation. History will also show that US was built on the entrepreneurship (and sometimes cruelty) of those capitalistic individuals who fought bitterly with the unions in order to increase profit to continue research and ultimately growth of their industries.

As far as being jealous, I can admit that I am somewhat perplexed at the salaries commanded by some union workers. I went to a reception a few months ago and many of the guests at my table commented on the salaries some of their union counterparts were making. I was shocked :shock: (no pun intended for you electricians outh there). But in order to avoid being labelled a hypocrite, I will have to simply accept the fact that having such bargaining force is part of living in a free society.

I do question validity of unions, however, where non-union workers are not permitted to "conduct business" by "union" guys refusing to accept deliveries or other such tactics. Did I say not permitted.... I mean "exercised professional courtesy" to their union brothers. So if I understand this correctly then, a person either has to join the union or be banned from making a living. Who then protects the rights of those non-union individuals?

In essense those grand salaries are being made at the expense of and detriment to non-union laborers. You see how the argument becomes circular?

[gtluke]

I equate it to the dirt poor Southern "hick" population voting Republican because they push their religious buttons. I don't know how they did it, but it's brilliant.

stop watching bill mahr, please for the love of god.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/usmap-large.gif

[DrSmile]

We discussed the whole US map thing before and I believe you already admitted you were wrong.

[DrSmile]

And stop watching Fox. :lol:

[satanpez]

satanpez i agree with you completely that there are incompentent members of local 3. there is a big push to weed them out lately because we dont want a few bad apples to ruin our good reputation. things are changing in the local and guys like that can no longer slip through.

One of my biggest problems with BIG unions is it's not controlled by the members but by fat cats that care about themselves and not the workers.

As for union dues, it's not a huge amount of money. Many of the unions are flush with money, some are flush with debt. But do remember that your employer pays fees (I believe Local 3 was 1%). I think 164 was all employer paid. It's an additional cost, but it's not a big deal when considering everything else.


One of my original points was that the corporate mindset has somehow managed to completely vilify the concept of workers uniting to push for improved work conditions. A new generation has been indoctrinated to identify any such efforts as almost a Pavlovian evil. It's totally emotionally based and defies rational thought, especially since most of the younger people would greatly benefit from such actions. People under age 35 have the LOWEST percentage of health care coverage. Many people under age 30 still live at home, something unheard of 30 years ago. I equate it to the dirt poor Southern "hick" population voting Republican because they push their religious buttons. I don't know how they did it, but it's brilliant.

Whatever you're smoking surely isn't legal.

First of all, many people under 35 CHOOSE to not have health coverage. It's a cost, many people justify not having it. I didn't have health coverage for a long time because I didn't wish to pay for it. Shifting the burden onto the employer makes it more expensive to hire that person. Free healthcare isn't "Free".

As for people living at home, housing prices have risen dramatically over the last few years. Is this a corporate conspiracy? I'd like to see you prove that. Historically housing has mostly kept up with inflation and we'll be in for a market correction. Your rich blue states are the ones where the youth are living at home. The poor red states are where real estate pricing has not become overinflated in the past few years and the young ARE buying houses.

Also there is less unionizing because of the changes in the workplace. We've moved to more of a service economy where jobs are switched much faster than before. Sometimes bad in conditions of layoffs, many times good as people move to where their skills are more needed. Union pay structures work well in a manufacturing or construction environment, they don't work so well in office work. Do you prefer paying workers based on years of service or if they fuckup people's teeth or not?

-Steve

[DrSmile]

First of all, many people under 35 CHOOSE to not have health coverage. It's a cost, many people justify not having it. I didn't have health coverage for a long time because I didn't wish to pay for it. Shifting the burden onto the employer makes it more expensive to hire that person. Free healthcare isn't "Free".

You've actually convinced yourself that you don't want health care coverage. Talk about retarded. You didn't have health care coverage because you couldn't AFFORD it. That's like me saying I CHOOSE not to buy a Ferrari.

Of course health care isn't free. It's something people should however have, because no matter what you age, you can get sick or injured at any time. And if unions can get that coverage as opposed to working by yourself, that is a GOOD thing. As I stated previously, these companies are NOT going broke providing benefits to their employees.

[gtluke]

And stop watching Fox. :lol:

there is a big difference between mahr and fox. mahr is hateful and unfair to his guests. fox is on the same level as the daily show. jon stewart is a democrat but he's fair and not disgustingly one sided and completely jaded. he has his views but he's not a complete dickface to the other side.

mahr is on the same level as ann coulter. just hate and insults.

radical islamics don't hate america as much as mahr does.

[satanpez]

You've actually convinced yourself that you don't want health care coverage. Talk about retarded. You didn't have health care coverage because you couldn't AFFORD it. That's like me saying I CHOOSE not to buy a Ferrari.

Of course health care isn't free. It's something people should however have, because no matter what you age, you can get sick or injured at any time. And if unions can get that coverage as opposed to working by yourself, that is a GOOD thing. As I stated previously, these companies are NOT going broke providing benefits to their employees.

But are they paying their employees less? That's the whole thing. You just assume that if the employer pays and the employee doesn't see any of the costs it's basically free. There's a cost associated with Health Care, just as there is with the 6% the company pays for SS, or for workman's comp etc. Each is a hindrance to hiring an employee in the first place and also to how much they can be paid. What you're asking for is to remove all choice from the employee whatsoever. Why not make healthcare 100% tax deductable and give the employee the money it would cost and let them decide?

-Steve

[satanpez]

Talk about retarded. You didn't have health care coverage because you couldn't AFFORD it. That's like me saying I CHOOSE not to buy a Ferrari.


And that's entirely incorrect. I could afford it at the time. I was young and healthy and accepted the risk. I typically don't believe in paying for unnecessary insurance.

-Steve

[Utah Joe]

I love hearing people bitch about fox news after decades of proven liberal bias in the media. Rene just wants Dan Rather back. Listen to shepard smith on the fox report at 6 and tell me how "republican" he is. Or Juan Williams, or Mora Liaison, or alan combs......ya its a real republican channel.

[Utah Joe]

radical islamics don't hate america as much as mahr does.

So true. Bill Mahr certainly likes the terrorists more than he does the US military. After all they blow themselves up in crowds, and we use cruise missles.

[gtluke]

i bet rene has never watch fox news,
like he's never driven a chevy, and never worked for or with a real union.

[DrSmile]

Haha... I have never owned a chevy, that is true. I have owned a Dodge and a Ford. I have watched Fox news, but most of my news I get from Jim Lehrer , the BBC, or DW. I worked in a food store for local 1262 for 5 years, the union rep looked like he was directly out of the Sopranos. Good wages, good healthcare, good benefits. I never complained.

[Utah Joe]

but most of my news I get from Jim Lehrer , the BBC, or DW.

hahahaha, might as well watch al jazeera. :lol:

[lucassays]

ValidAs far as being jealous, I can admit that I am somewhat perplexed at the salaries commanded by some union workers. I went to a reception a few months ago and many of the guests at my table commented on the salaries some of their union counterparts were making. I was shocked :shock: (no pun intended for you electricians outh there). But in order to avoid being labelled a hypocrite, I will have to simply accept the fact that having such bargaining force is part of living in a free society.

I do question validity of unions, however, where non-union workers are not permitted to "conduct business" by "union" guys refusing to accept deliveries or other such tactics. Did I say not permitted.... I mean "exercised professional courtesy" to their union brothers. So if I understand this correctly then, a person either has to join the union or be banned from making a living. Who then protects the rights of those non-union individuals?

In essense those grand salaries are being made at the expense of and detriment to non-union laborers. You see how the argument becomes circular?

[lucassays]

i screwed up my post so heres what i wanted to type. many non union white collar type workers are jealous of the amount of money that union workers make. this jealousy causes them to say that our salaries are unfair because they dont make as much. they then try to make a point that we get paid TOO MUCH and more then we are worth. i feel this is a ridiculous point. i believe that other industries should use us as a pivot point in trying to get their salaries raised to where they should be. corporations are making billions and workers are paid peanuts. the arguement should be hey the union guys are making proper salaries and i want my salary to be proper as well. it should not be oooo they make more then me so i think they should have their salaries pushed down. that does not help anyone except big business. use us as a bargaining tactic or a pivot point in attempting to get paid what you rightfully should be. workers are being exploited and they dont realize it. this selfish way of lookign at things does nothing to help solve the problem and only to help add to it. WE DONT GET PAID TOO MUCH, YOU GET PAID TOO LITTLE. DONT PUSH FOR OUR SALARIES TO BE LOWERED, THAT WILL ONLY HURT YOU AS WELL. FIGHT FOR YOUR SALARIES TO BE INCREASED AS THEY SHOULD. AS LONG AS CORPORATIONS ARE MAKING TONS OF PROFITS THEIR WORKERS SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LIVE WITHOUT BENEFITS OR SHIT RETIREMENT FUNDS.

we do not accept things from non union workers because they are hurting us pushing the average salary down. we want them to realize to UNIONIZE and stop scabbing. they are only hurting themselves and us.

can someone give me a valid reason as to why non union workers would not want to enjoy the benfits of being in a union?

[lucassays]

i can tell you the reason why non union workers want to push our salaries down instead of trying to use our salaries as a pivot point to get theirs where they should be. ITS BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE THE POWER TO BARGAIN WITH THEIR EMPLOYERS AND MAKE THIS HAPPEN. WHY IS THIS YOU MAY ASK? I HAVE THE ANSWER. . . IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT UNITED AND THUS THE EMPLOYER HAS A GREAT ADVANTAGE OVER THEM. HE WILL JUST FIRE YOU AND REFUSE TO GRANT YOU A PROPER SALARY WITH BENEFITS AND HIRE YOUR FELLOW WORKER WHO WILL UNDERCUT YOU BECAUSE HE IS IN THE SAME SHIT SITUATION YOU ARE IN.

[DrSmile]

Well, watching what actually happened around the world and listening to experts expressing their opinions sure beats watching the search for Natalee Holloway...

[gtluke]

lucas, people complain about how much money union electricians make because their skills don't gain them that money, the strong arm of the union does. an electrician has nowhere near the skill of a auto mechanic yet they get paid double because of the union strongarm tactics.

i believe you should be paid what you are worth, not what your union can demand by using jobsite shutdown as leverage.

oh well. you'll follow the uaw into the hole soon anyway.

[DrSmile]

Here's a novel thought Luke. Maybe they're getting paid what they're worth and you're getting only half of what you should be getting paid?

[lucassays]

lucas, people complain about how much money union electricians make because their skills don't gain them that money, the strong arm of the union does. an electrician has nowhere near the skill of a auto mechanic yet they get paid double because of the union strongarm tactics.

i believe you should be paid what you are worth, not what your union can demand by using jobsite shutdown as leverage.

oh well. you'll follow the uaw into the hole soon anyway.

auto mechanics outbid one another and cause the price of their labor to go down the tubes.

unions dont strong arm anything. fuck man stop and think about it. the only strong arming that goes on is by employers not willing to pay their workers benefits or proper wages. hell we still have to fight tooth and nail at the bargaining table to get anything. they STILL have the advantage and were unionized. stop holding the wool over your eyes and see whats actually going on. better yet take a few college courses. my rich should be republican professors all schooled in the issues support democratic policy and support the labor movement. when you know the facts youll know its all about corporate greed. NOONE IS GOING TO PAY WORKERS BENEFITS IF THEY CAN GET THE WORKERS TO ACCEPT NOT HAVING THEM BY PITTING THEM AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. why the hell is there a national healthcare problem? if your theory of workers getting paid what they are worth is true then why is it that corporate america seems to think that the majority of the population doesnt deserve proper healthcare and benefits then? i think we do. its because employers are selfish and greedy and only want to put money in their pockets. you cant blame them for it because they are doign whats best for them in capitalism. i am all for capitalism and think its the best thing but we have to unionize to try to get a fair share in this economy. hell people with college degrees are joining unions because they are seeing that they cant get the benefits and amount of pay that they can in a union. the corporate world isnt all its cracked up to be. people think that if you get a college degree your going to be making good money. thats not the case anymore. im not saying it should be that way. i think it shouldnt but thats the way it is because corporations have been allowed to run wild with no opposition from the workforce. why no opposition? because they arent united. united we stand divided we fall. i have guys with thier masters in my electrical theory. majority with at least a associates. plenty with bachelors.

[lucassays]

also waiting for anyones answer to why wouldnt someone want to be unionized and gain all the benefits of being in a union? everyone should be union

[gtluke]

Here's a novel thought Luke. Maybe they're getting paid what they're worth and you're getting only half of what you should be getting paid?

um no sorry, electricians are a $10 an hour job. they have a barely skilled job, and hardly work during the day. rene i can teach you to be an electrician in like an hour. any job like that isn't worth much per hour.

i've worked with a few electricians that are worth their rate. but they are very few and far between.

during installs i usually have a "union slave" that follows me around. i get out my drawings and have to baby sit him and go " connect this wire to terminal 154, connect this wire to terminal 155" this goes on for hours and days.
i'm not allowed to touch anything or hold a screwdriver in my hand at any time. i'm not even allowed to carry these devices to where they go. i have to get my union slave to carry them or they try and strike because i'm taking their job.
some of my sites arn't union. i do the install myself. it takes 1/2 of the time and costs the customer 1/4 on the install because we cut out so much overhead and bullshit even at our $125 an hour / $800 a day rates.
plus there tends to be less BZZT noise and smoke and fried components.


and lucas, its strongarm. thats what a strike is. its strongarm'ing your way into more money because you carry the ability to take the company down.
don't be so nieve

i get my raises by impressing my boss. he knows understands that if i go uncompensated for my skill rate, other companies will take me on for what i'm worth. or, i can get an offer from another company and ask him to match it or lose me. he gives me raises according to my skill level to avoid such situations.
i was offered a job the day before yesterday at a plant i was working at. i turned it down because i'm happily compensated where i am right now. if i feel i am worth more i would follow that lead and possibly take the job or ask for a counteroffer from my current employer.

[gtluke]

also waiting for anyones answer to why wouldnt someone want to be unionized and gain all the benefits of being in a union? everyone should be union

because i'm not a fucking communist? i can earn my own wages and benefits thanks.

[gtluke]

you know whats funny?

you know whats really fucking funny?
is how this thread started in the first place

you think that when the insurance companies have us by the balls, and demand higher rates becaues they can, or that oil companies have us by the balls and raise prices because i can... its wrong right? its extortion? something should be done about it right?

but when local 3 has the entire construciton industry of greater new york by the balls and demands greater salary you think its fucking normal? and you think its something that that should be spread around? are you fucking kidding me? you union fuckfaces are using extortion to get your wages because your skills can't. you should move to fucking france you fucking faggot because they have laws like your unions have rules and i hear their youth is having a great time not working and burning cars. fucking fuck!

for fuck's sake when is the mexican dinner part?

[gtluke]

and rene weren't you complaining about things like lack of choice of cell phone plan? here is your choice of electricians if you are doing a job in new york and new jersey.

your local union

thats it.
one choice forced upon you by communist unions.

[rsk_wannabe]

Either I have to come home from work earlier or else start posting while I am at work like the rest of you f-ups. LOL!

Anyway, by the amount of YELLING that I can see, apparently some nerves were touched. We are all just sharing our opinions here, right? Why all the yelling?

In answer to the question about why doesn't everyone want to be in the union, here are a few reasons:

1) They do not want to be in one for personal reasons. Does that mean that they should not be able to compete in the same industry as union members? Should not the union be able to convince its customers that their union workers are better qualified, better capable to complete jobs, and more reliable. Or must the union prevent a worker from making a living by unilaterally banning that person from performing a valid service simply because that person is "non-union".

2) Cronyism/Nepotism. Whether you want to admit it or not, some people do get into unions based on who they know, not what they know. Is it fair? Who's to say? I think this form of hiring practice exists everywhere, not only in the Union shops. What if you do not know anyone who can put in the "good word" for you?

3) In the alternative, those who do get in a union based on their superlative skills. Well, guess what? That means some other people are not going to get in because they are not as good in taking tests or whatever other standard the union uses to accept members. As you yourself indicated, not everyone can get into the union.

So where does that leave people who may want to be part of the brotherhood, but simply do not have any friends/relatives or test scores to gain membership? I guess they are stuck in their non-union jobs being blocked from making a living and being called SCABs.

As far as salary goes, sure it would be great if all occupations could use the Union scale as a basis to justify higher salaries. Yes, that will show those damn greedy corporate bastards. I guess now those CEO SOBs will have to cower in their ivory towers.... Uh, wait a sec....on second thought maybe they will simply increase the prices of their products/services and pass it onto the consumer. Yeah, that's the ticket. Afterall, they all have golden parachutes so even if they get fired, they still retire as multi-millionaires.

So now we have more people demanding for and having the unionized power to get higher wages, so the price of products increase to the point of no longer being competitive with similar goods/services from other nations that do not have organized crime... I mean labor. (Don't get mad at me, Rene is the one who used the Sopranos comparison).

So we will then hear all the complaints about outsourcing of jobs with India and balance of trade deficits with China and the poor economy since we are closing another plant and laying off 1000s of union workers. Gee, isn't that grand?

It's called a Global Economy. Maybe one of those so called rich Republican Professor forgot to teach that concept... Hold the presses! That is a completely oxymoronic phrase.... there are no such things as republican professors... that particular industry has also been unionized by the liberal intellectuals.

[satanpez]

In theory the unionized workers are worth the money as they are being paid that rate. But there would be many more projects out there and many more people employed if they were paid less. What's happened in many highly unionized areas are that costs to begin any project is so high they can't get off the ground. Many articles have been written about Detroit where it was so expensive to get anything done because the unions had so much influence on everything and their costs were so high.

I have no problem with the high wages, the benefits etc. What I do have a problem is with the lack of productivity and lack of incentive to work harder. When you've got 5 years in and do an ok job or you've got 25 years and do a great job you're getting paid exactly the same.

Unions have (and still do) VERY much helped the workers in areas of safety. I'm constantly on construction sites and the danger is crazy. The work they do to make sure people are trained in safety matters is great, making sure the workplace is safe and caring for the employees in the future is great. The biggest reasons why things like retirement are so important to union employees is many of these jobs are impossible to do in the later years. Try pulling cable when you're 55 and your knees and back are shot.

-Steve in NJ

[atc250r]

why wouldnt someone want to be unionized and gain all the benefits of being in a union?

Probably because they work for an employer that doesn't shit on their employees. Although I am not in a union I do know that in my trade (auto repair) I'd be a whole lot better off if it were more unionized. Owner's of car dealers are basically glorified car salesmen and just like most car salesmen they are snakes who would run a game on their own mother to make a few more bucks. Therefore they have no problems taking advantage of their employees. I've worked for 5 different dealerships on 2 different brands so I can make a pretty good determination here. While I am a union supporter I am also a REALIST and unions absolutely use strong arm tactics to get what they want. Can you honestly say that the MTA strike was not?!?! I don't disagree with what they did because if the employer wants to play hard ball and give you a raw deal then fucking-a-right you should be able to do the same thing.

So where and when is this Mexican thing going on? I haven't seen Steve since Luke got mawled (sp?) by that bear. :lol:

John

[atc250r]

The biggest reasons why things like retirement are so important to union employees is many of these jobs are impossible to do in the later years. Try pulling cable when you're 55 and your knees and back are shot.

AMEN!!

Try hanging over a fender at that age.

John

[rsk_wannabe]

this jealousy causes them to say that our salaries are unfair because they dont make as much. they then try to make a point that we get paid TOO MUCH and more then we are worth.

A person's "worth" has nothing to do with how much money that person makes. I have met far too many individuals in my life who are infinitely more valuable to society than I will ever be based on their humanity, compassion, tolerance, honesty and fortitude. Yet they make peanuts for a living. Still, they are much happier and content with life than others who rake in big bucks and yet complain about every little thing and the unfairness in the world.

I think I shall aspire to be more like the former group than the latter.

[gtluke]

this jealousy causes them to say that our salaries are unfair because they dont make as much. they then try to make a point that we get paid TOO MUCH and more then we are worth.

A person's "worth" has nothing to do with how much money that person makes. I have met far too many individuals in my life who are infinitely more valuable to society than I will ever be based on their humanity, compassion, tolerance, honesty and fortitude. Yet they make peanuts for a living. Still, they are much happier and content with life than others who rake in big bucks and yet complain about every little thing and the unfairness in the world.

I think I shall aspire to be more like the former group than the latter.



exactly.
i've spent the majority of my life trying to distance myself from feeling the way lucas does. i grew up in a fucked up neighborhood with a fucked up family and fucked up friends. i thougth the world shit on me and i'd do anything for money and didn't give a shit about society or anyone else.

i've learned from many of life's close calls and near deaths that i was wrong. a "worth" has become much more important to me and ironicly money has followed. every day i become happier and i can't ask for anything more.

i do have a lot of guilt for leaving behind a lot of old friends i purposely avoid, and i havn't talked to my parents in 6 months, but these people have this greed for things and are pretty worthless to everyone but themselves. one day i'll have a way to balance this but not now.

joining a union is one of the things i'll never do in my life. i would have 10 years ago but not now. i have morals now, which would never let me extort anyone for something that isn't owed to me. i want what i'm worth and not a dollar more. i want to be responsible for my own salary, i want to decide what risks are worth it and what insurance i want to buy. there is not a single person on this planet that owed me anything. and to think society owes anyone anything is sickning ot me. society doesn't owe me medical insurance, business doesn't owe me cheap gas. if you have a place to sleap and food to eat are happy you should be grateful to anything that allows this. i'm extreamly grateful to my employer who gave me a chance. he doesn't owe me shit. infact i owe him hard work for the opportunity he gave me. i couldn't imagine looking at him and thinking i could bleed him for more money because he is wealthy. he earned it, and in my time i'll earn it too, but i'm not going to use extortion to get mine.
for the first time in my life i've been able to sleep well at night and no amount of money could get me to hurt someone that helped me so i can get more money.
i'll take the good sleep and keep my morals.

[lucassays]

Here's a novel thought Luke. Maybe they're getting paid what they're worth and you're getting only half of what you should be getting paid?

um no sorry, electricians are a $10 an hour job. they have a barely skilled job, and hardly work during the day. rene i can teach you to be an electrician in like an hour. any job like that isn't worth much per hour.

i've worked with a few electricians that are worth their rate. but they are very few and far between.

during installs i usually have a "union slave" that follows me around. i get out my drawings and have to baby sit him and go " connect this wire to terminal 154, connect this wire to terminal 155" this goes on for hours and days.
i'm not allowed to touch anything or hold a screwdriver in my hand at any time. i'm not even allowed to carry these devices to where they go. i have to get my union slave to carry them or they try and strike because i'm taking their job.
some of my sites arn't union. i do the install myself. it takes 1/2 of the time and costs the customer 1/4 on the install because we cut out so much overhead and bullshit even at our $125 an hour / $800 a day rates.
plus there tends to be less BZZT noise and smoke and fried components.


and lucas, its strongarm. thats what a strike is. its strongarm'ing your way into more money because you carry the ability to take the company down.
don't be so nieve

i get my raises by impressing my boss. he knows understands that if i go uncompensated for my skill rate, other companies will take me on for what i'm worth. or, i can get an offer from another company and ask him to match it or lose me. he gives me raises according to my skill level to avoid such situations.
i was offered a job the day before yesterday at a plant i was working at. i turned it down because i'm happily compensated where i am right now. if i feel i am worth more i would follow that lead and possibly take the job or ask for a counteroffer from my current employer.

yes the 5.5 years of schooling would equate to a 10 dollar an hour job that you can teach someone in one hour. the ridiculousness of your comments is astonishing. strongarming by striking wonderfull. i suppose your boss cant strong arm you by telling you to do more work for the same money or fire you. if he did that you have the opportunity to quit. if a union strikes the employer has teh opportunity to find new non union workers. granted it will be a royal pain in the ass for the employer to do that. NO MORE THEN THE AMOUNT OF A PAIN IN THE ASS IT WOULD BE TO YOU IF YOU WERE FIRED FOR THE REASON I STATED ABOVE. get your head out of your ass man, keep believing your employer really covets you and cares about you. your a fuckin number to him man. the day you can be replaced and save him money your fuckin gone. with that m done with this thread. your ideas and thoughts are warped and uneducated in the subject. i could go on forever trying to make you see what is really going on but you are brainwashed. TAKE SOME COURSES ON THE SUBJECT IN A PLACE OF HIGHER LEARNING AND GET BACK TO ME. DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, I ONLY HAVE ABOUT 60 COLLEGE CREDITS ON THIS TOPIC.

[lucassays]

this jealousy causes them to say that our salaries are unfair because they dont make as much. they then try to make a point that we get paid TOO MUCH and more then we are worth.

A person's "worth" has nothing to do with how much money that person makes. I have met far too many individuals in my life who are infinitely more valuable to society than I will ever be based on their humanity, compassion, tolerance, honesty and fortitude. Yet they make peanuts for a living. Still, they are much happier and content with life than others who rake in big bucks and yet complain about every little thing and the unfairness in the world.

I think I shall aspire to be more like the former group than the latter.

oooo god. i meant our hourly pay rate. what we are worth in terms of what we do for a living. i had no intentions of bringing up the subject of the worth of a human being. thats just a ridiculous misinterpretation of what i said. completely bizarre if you ask me

[gtluke]

lol you fucking moron. i have 3 college degree's, one being a bacholers in psychology. i laugh at your 60 credits and your assumption that i can't read people. you have 60 credits in the topic of dumb as a motherfucker.

and holy shit did i laugh out loud at your 5.5 years of schooling to be an electrician. god you are dumb. do they throw in a degree in architecture too?
HAHAHA
god you act like i don't work with your union everyday. you think i don't talk to these guys?
5.5 years, holy shit thats a good one.


wheeeeew
still laughing.
hahaa
lol

[rsk_wannabe]

oooo god. i meant our hourly pay rate. what we are worth in terms of what we do for a living. i had no intentions of bringing up the subject of the worth of a human being. thats just a ridiculous misinterpretation of what i said. completely bizarre if you ask me

Although you try to clarify your comment, I think your intent was fairly clear the first time based on your posts. You claims of jealousy by "white collar" workers and your examples offered regarding college students joining the unions to support your position as well as your recent remarks questioning the education level of someone who disagrees with your position indicate that you harbor a deep-seeded resentment for persons who have accomplished much academically, and showing that you are doing as well if not better than those geeks in honors alegbra who would not let you join the dungeons and dragons club is your way of "getting even."

How's that for some good psychology, Luke? Not bad for a high school dropout, eh?

[DrSmile]

I'm gonna cast a cease and disist spell on you Joe! Well, my 18th level sorcerer is anyways...

No one is gonna pick a day or place for the Mexican food?

[DrSmile]

Desist darn it... why can't I edit my own posts in this forum?

[rsk_wannabe]

i suppose your boss cant strong arm you by telling you to do more work for the same money or fire you. if he did that you have the opportunity to quit. if a union strikes the employer has teh opportunity to find new non union workers. granted it will be a royal pain in the ass for the employer to do that. NO MORE THEN THE AMOUNT OF A PAIN IN THE ASS IT WOULD BE TO YOU IF YOU WERE FIRED FOR THE REASON I STATED ABOVE. get your head out of your ass man, keep believing your employer really covets you and cares about you. your a fuckin number to him man. the day you can be replaced and save him money your fuckin gone. with that m done with this thread. your ideas and thoughts are warped and uneducated in the subject. i could go on forever trying to make you see what is really going on but you are brainwashed. TAKE SOME COURSES ON THE SUBJECT IN A PLACE OF HIGHER LEARNING AND GET BACK TO ME. DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, I ONLY HAVE ABOUT 60 COLLEGE CREDITS ON THIS TOPIC.

I know you said 'you m done with this thread', but I m just starting to enjoy it. I do not mean to upset you, but the way you present your position is too enticing.

The reason that Luke's boss values him as an employee is not because of his good looks and pleasant demeanor (although losing the weight has certainly done wonders in the looks department. j/k), it is because he provides a value to that employer. If/when someone else comes along who can do the work better, faster, cheaper than Luke then of course the employer will give Luke the old heave ho. What Luke is trying to convey (sorry for putting words in your mouth) is that it then becomes his goal to make sure that day never comes by being the better faster most cost efficient employee available. If he fails, then he must seek a job where he will be the best employee for "that new position." Thus, the employer keeps his costs down, offers great service/product and gets more work.

If the employer wants to be greedy, then he can certainly pay less to the point when Luke decides he can find better paying job elsewhere and the employer is stuck settling for less qualified "whatever the hell Luke does" workers. As a result, he may lower costs but his quality will diminish and he will lose business. This the employer will have to determine at what level of pay he is willing to offer an employee to balance his need for a worker who is able to the job done well and keep business thriving.

The employer/employee relationship should have little to do with love or hate, it is strictly business decisions. If belonging to a union makes you believe that you are superior to non-union workers, so be it. However, whenever free market forces are hampered by non-economic factors (such as unions who demand higher pay than market forces normally dictate), I have to respectly disagree that such salary truly reflects a particular employee's added value to the product.

WRT your comment about the employer being able to fire the union workers who strike, I agree that this is similar to but not exactly like the situation with a single or small group of employees. The main problem with solidarity is the "one for all, all for one" mantra includes even the most inept and worthless "ones". Thus there is therefore less motivation to improve the service or performance. What once was a means to combat the unfair bargaining positions of management (Yeah Norma Rae) seems to have gone to far to the opposite end of the spectrum.

I am not here to change your opinion against your will (in fact, I have to agree on the of safety improvements discussed earlier), just to share my opinions on matters where I think I have something useful (and sometimes playful) to add.

[rsk_wannabe]

I'm gonna cast a cease and desist spell on you Joe! Well, my 18th level sorcerer is anyways...

I should have known you were in that club.... you damn pencil-necked geek.

A Papasmurf pox on you oh wily wizzard of the overbite.

[gtluke]

i love rsk, he says the things i want to say without the "jersey" tossed in there :)
haha

messican, don jose, someone pick a date. this friday i can't, next friday is the B's meet that nate is trying to over ride with the island meet. this saturday is nmra maple grove, sunday is fathers day.

[satanpez]

Let's do a middle of the week thing. Not the middle of next week however unless maybe it's tuesday? :)

-Steve

[gtluke]

that would work for me

[DrSmile]

The reason that Luke's boss values him as an employee is not because of his good looks and pleasant demeanor (although losing the weight has certainly done wonders in the looks department. j/k), it is because he provides a value to that employer. If/when someone else comes along who can do the work better, faster, cheaper than Luke then of course the employer will give Luke the old heave ho. What Luke is trying to convey (sorry for putting words in your mouth) is that it then becomes his goal to make sure that day never comes by being the better faster most cost efficient employee available. If he fails, then he must seek a job where he will be the best employee for "that new position." Thus, the employer keeps his costs down, offers great service/product and gets more work.

You're basically argueing for no job security whatsoever. People have become totally intolerant of failure nowadays. Do you so your job perfect every day? Most corporations train their employees to do the job they do. What prevents them from hiring someone else 5 or 10 years later when your salary becomes to high? Do you REALLY think your job skills are so unique that no one else can do your work?


If the employer wants to be greedy, then he can certainly pay less to the point when Luke decides he can find better paying job elsewhere and the employer is stuck settling for less qualified "whatever the hell Luke does" workers. As a result, he may lower costs but his quality will diminish and he will lose business. This the employer will have to determine at what level of pay he is willing to offer an employee to balance his need for a worker who is able to the job done well and keep business thriving.

The employer/employee relationship should have little to do with love or hate, it is strictly business decisions. If belonging to a union makes you believe that you are superior to non-union workers, so be it. However, whenever free market forces are hampered by non-economic factors (such as unions who demand higher pay than market forces normally dictate), I have to respectly disagree that such salary truly reflects a particular employee's added value to the product.

Did everyone here get their corporate job because they were the best at that job compared to other applicants? I highly doubt it. Most jobs I got were because I knew someone. And from my experience an individuals corporate success is definitely not based on their performance, it's based on how well they network themselves. The same thing goes for being fired. Having some sort of job security (like tenure or arbitration boards for example) makes things more fair and keeps corporations from canning your ass at their whim.

[DrSmile]

i do have a lot of guilt for leaving behind a lot of old friends i purposely avoid, and i havn't talked to my parents in 6 months, but these people have this greed for things and are pretty worthless to everyone but themselves. one day i'll have a way to balance this but not now.

Those greedy people now run the corporations. They give even less of a shit about you than the unions would. They'll trade your ass for a whim, they'll consolidate and "streamline" the work force while trading in their options for the millions that you'll never see.


society doesn't owe me medical insurance

If you've worked for 30 years I think you'll feel different. As we're all busy analyzing statements I'd say yours indicates a basic selfishness and distrust of others. You can't do everything by yourself, and society is BASED on interactions with other people. If people just relied on themselves and what they could do we'd all be farmers growning our food to survice.


business doesn't owe me cheap gas

No it doesn't, but if there is no competition or control business would charge you as much as they could for that gas. If they started charging $60 a gallon, what exactly could you do? Open your own refinery?


If you have a place to sleap and food to eat are happy you should be grateful to anything that allows this

So basically we should be happy like slaves living in the master's shed? I'll just start eating soylent green and start picking cotton tomorrow... what you are saying is totally baseless. Who is going to provide healthcare for your girlfriend, your wife, your children? How are they going to be provided for should you get hurt or die? How are you going to live once you get too old to work?


but i'm not going to use extortion to get mine.

The corporation will have no problem extorting you to work extra hours and threaten you with job loss. Unions simply provide a countering force. It's just ignorant to call unions extortionist when corporations use the SAME EXACT TACTICS in reverse, and overall they MAKE MORE OF THE MONEY!

[DrSmile]

Oh and next Tuesday works for me...

[Utah Joe]

You're basically argueing for no job security whatsoever. People have become totally intolerant of failure nowadays. Do you so your job perfect every day? Most corporations train their employees to do the job they do. What prevents them from hiring someone else 5 or 10 years later when your salary becomes to high? Do you REALLY think your job skills are so unique that no one else can do your work?



So you are saying that failure is ok. Its ok that employer should have to deal with employees screwing up and costing them money for mistakes. Thats bullshit. If you can't do your job properly, then your employer should have the right to fire your ass. I understand that it might leave open the possibility for for employers to fire anyone at will but the alternative is worse. Say to one of your employees "well the process to get you fired is so complicated and costly that we cant get rid of you", and then see how hard they work. In my opinion that is one of the major reasons that our schools are in total decline. Cant fire a teacher with tenure, cant do anything to hold them accountable for their work, kids today are dumber than ever according to the expert surveys. I for one dont worry one bit about my boss going on a rampage one and just firing me b/c he might hate italians. There is another engineering company across the street, in the next town, and I will get another job. My boss is out as far as I am concerned. However I look at every government run office works that I have to deal with everyday and see first hand how offices run when people cant get fired. They dont do SHIT!!!!! They get pissed when you call and ask for something b/c you interupt their solitare game.




Did everyone here get their corporate job because they were the best at that job compared to other applicants? I highly doubt it. Most jobs I got were because I knew someone. And from my experience an individuals corporate success is definitely not based on their performance, it's based on how well they network themselves. The same thing goes for being fired. Having some sort of job security (like tenure or arbitration boards for example) makes things more fair and keeps corporations from canning your ass at their whim.

Rene, you DO NOT get a job teaching UMDNJ dental students because you simply know someone. You might be able to make a contact and get an interview, but somewhere along the line I am sure you had to prove your knowledge of dentistry. I have done both. I have gone to companies blind and gotten job offers and jobs and I have had people hire me b/c they knew me. Either way, I had to prove my skills sooner or later. [/quote]

[DrSmile]

Of course you have to have skills. My point is:

1) The company teaches you most of the job specific skills for the particular job they're hiring you for and

2) They can train pretty much anyone else to do your job if need be.

My ego isn't so big as to think that I am irreplacable or infallible in my job. Luckily I get about 24 chances to get things right with my patients, and I try hard to be pleasant enough so the patients/parents are more tolerant if things don't go as smoothly as planned. The same applies to the corporate environment. When you screw up, the hope is that your boss corrects you and helps you not make the same mistake again, and being nice to your boss sure helps!

And YES employees screw up daily. I bet even YOU screw up every now and then. And YES that is ok because it's part of being human.

As for the decline of schools, they LAST people I would blame are the teachers. They vast majority of them work VERY hard for very little commensurate pay. I used to teach in a high school, and motivation of teachers was the least of the problems at the school. The bigest problem was RADICAL cuts in school funding.

I would bet that more than 50% of people on here got their current job because they knew someone. I admit I did.

[DrSmile]

For those who think their teachers were so bad, I'd recommend trying it out yourself. See how motivating it is when you have a student that has NO interest in learning what you just spent 40 hours making a lecture on. See how excited you can get when the states mandates you teach something that is based on religious beliefs that you know have no place in your classroom. See how enthusiastic you can get when you can't buy books made after 1980 because the budget has been cut.

And despite this, teachers spend MANY hours figuring out how to give the best education possible with the limited funds they have. There were lots of teachers I didn't like, but I don't for a second believe that they weren't trying their best. You have to be quite altruistic and motivated to be a teacher nowadays based on how little you get paid. Getting decent benefits or tenure is a well deserved benefit. If we didn't have tenure and schools were privatized we'd all have trouble spelling potato(e).

[gtluke]

i was kidding before but really rene i think you are a socialist. not that its entirely bad but look at all the countries that follow what you desire. france has great protection for its workers. but that lead to nobody ever hiring anyone.

you aparently have never had a good employer either. where i've really never had a bad one.
i worked for gary for 10 years, he tried his best to share his income with me fairly. but more importantly he cared about my well being. for one because if i was unhappy it showed in my quality of work. but also he actually gave a fuck because we worked side by side for almost 10 years and he had to trust me with running 90% of his business for the last 3 or 4 of those years. he always made sure i kept up in school and when i was short on money he was the first one to offer up some cash to buy my books or gas to get to school. if i was having hard time with something, i actually turned to my employer before my parents. we had a symbiotic relationship. MOST americans work for small businesses like i always have. i can't comment really on working with nate because well he was my friend beforehand so of course he gave a shit. but now i work for a guy that was a complete stranger. he's always given me exactly what i need. a few weeks ago i mentioned that my eyes were bothing me doing autocad on a laptop. 2 days later a 24" lcd flat panel was on my desk. i've gotten raises without asking, i've already used up way more vacation time than was allocated to me and he has no problem letting me take more (paid).
he has hired and fired 2 guys after me. but they sucked. i can't imagine trying to think that he had some kind of responsibility to keep them around, or continue paying them after they left. they were here for a few weeks and just plain sucked. they got more than enough warning that they sucked too.

i'm sorry that you have had such a horrible experience with employers in the past. but this is where america shines. if you don't like where you are or what you are doing, move on. or if you want, you can even bitch.

another neat thing about my office is the diversity here.
nachman - born in israel
irena - born in russia
andrew - born in poland
ramon - dominican
johara - puerto rico

yet i've never heard any of them badmouth the way our country runs. and they all oppose unions. even the 2 of them that came from communist countries.

you are alone in your thoughts. the rest of us are happy with the way things work because it gives us choice in life. employers are american citizens too.

[Utah Joe]

Those greedy people now run the corporations. They give even less of a shit about you than the unions would. They'll trade your ass for a whim, they'll consolidate and "streamline" the work force while trading in their options for the millions that you'll never see.

Nor deserve. Does your secretary deserve to make as much as you? Did she spends thousands of dollers and years in medical school? Unions might care about you, but they do it for a price. Stop paying your unions dues and see how much of a shit they give about you. They are a bussiness just like everything else and the leaders of that bussiness make tons of money, just like a corp. leader.




If you've worked for 30 years I think you'll feel different. As we're all busy analyzing statements I'd say yours indicates a basic selfishness and distrust of others. You can't do everything by yourself, and society is BASED on interactions with other people. If people just relied on themselves and what they could do we'd all be farmers growning our food to survice.



People dont need to grow their own food to be independent. They simply need to pay someone else for making it, etc... Someone pays me for engineering something for them, I pay someone else for making my tasty chicken sang-which. I dont feel entitled to anything. People feeling entitled explains why they will sit in a house when a hurricane is comming and say "someone will come and take me away." You start depending on others/the government for you basic NEEDS and you are completly fucked. Does not matter if you feel the should be doing this or that, they WONT!!! and if they do it will never be as good as if I did it myself. Thus, I will do it myself. I completly distrust the government to make sure I am healthy, have a job, have food, am protected from every type of danger. If you sit around expecting that from a big bloated buracracy, you are in major trouble. The people in New Orleans are a perfect example of people depending on the government to save them from everything, even nature. (although many chose to stay) It does not matter if FEMA is 100% effiecent, I am not trusting my life to it, EVER, no matter how good a report might someday be about it. I will get the fuck out somehow, myself, and if I cant walk, then I made a poor choice to live in a town below sea level and subject to the worlds worst hurricanes. Same with riding my motorcycle. I take big risks doing it. 14 broken bones in 7 years and I am still going. If I hurt myself one day and cant work, I dont expect my boss to support me. I made the decision to ride, I pay the price for it.



No it doesn't, but if there is no competition or control business would charge you as much as they could for that gas. If they started charging $60 a gallon, what exactly could you do? Open your own refinery?



let them charge $60 a gallon, nobody would buy it. I know I wouldn't. I would be on my bike for 20+miles a day. Not that I want to, but I cant afford $60 a gallon. That would be the case in most places and there would be no sales and no profit. Then someone else would come along and undercut them and the market would fix it the problem. Maybe if it did happen we might finally get rid of some of the retarded enviromental laws keeping us from drilling for our own oil.




So basically we should be happy like slaves living in the master's shed? I'll just start eating soylent green and start picking cotton tomorrow... what you are saying is totally baseless. Who is going to provide healthcare for your girlfriend, your wife, your children? How are they going to be provided for should you get hurt or die? How are you going to live once you get too old to work?



no, when you are treated like a slave, QUIT!!!! go elsewhere. Pick another profession, start your own bussiness, etc.... You want you loved ones to be provided for, simple, pay for life insurance. And I guess we can live off social security and the government forever, that will do it.

[atc250r]

let them charge $60 a gallon, nobody would buy it. I know I wouldn't.

That is a pretty warped view, Joe. How do you suggest someone who can't ride a bike or take mass transit to work get there? I know I can't ride a bike to work everyday unless I plan on leaving for work as soon as I get home from work.

John

[atc250r]

That is a pretty warped view, Joe.

I guess you can't edit your posts in here so this is what I wanted to change that to:

That is a very unrealistic view, Joe


John

[DrSmile]

I never had a bad employer in my life. But then I decided not to participate in the corporate structure.

And calling my a socialist is the usual vilifying approach. I'm not a socialist. I'm a realist. No one is always productive during their lifetime. There are times Luke when you will not be productive. There are times when I'm in fact counter-productive. Some people aren't able to be "productive" in a financial sense at all. I've never met a non-musical artist that was financially successful in my life (ok maybe 1 or 2), that doesn't mean they're not socially productive. There are people who have mental or physical handicaps that make them not be able to be financially productive. Should we just shoot them in the head?

[DrSmile]

And did you seriously just lay the "AMerica, love it or leave it" line on me? Umm, I don't think I'll leave, I'll stay and try to change things just like the founding fathers intended.

[DrSmile]

And I doubt I'm alone in my thoughts. Mostly it's just you and Utah argueing with me. which is nothing new :)

[satanpez]

So we settled on Tuesday? What about Nate? Rich? Utah?

-Steve

[DrSmile]

no, when you are treated like a slave, QUIT!!!! go elsewhere. Pick another profession, start your own bussiness, etc.... You want you loved ones to be provided for, simple, pay for life insurance. And I guess we can live off social security and the government forever, that will do it.

As long as you have no responsibilites, you of course can quit. When other people or you yourself rely on your job, it's a different story.

For example, if you are 60 years old and are 5 years from retirement and have 2 kids and a wife, you can't just leave your job. But your employer can fire you any time.

[gtluke]

i didn't say america love it or leave it, i said your job, love it or leave it.
and what are you talking about, you work for umdnj, the biggest corporate clusterfuck known to man. look what their union did to my poor girlfriend. i think she's cried everyday for 2 weeks now having do deal with a "service" she fucking PAID to be a part of. they are screwing her bad.

we already have programs to help people who can't help themselves. disability insurance and other programs. i donated 40 hours last year to a relatively self sustaining company that placed mentally and physically handicapt people in jobs.

do you know anyone who is homeless? or jobless? or really that bad off right now? i keep bringing up france and you keep ignoring it. the reason they burn cars all night long is because the people there think like you. they want MORE protection for workers, but that causes employers to never hire anyone. its WAY too risky over there to hire anyone because of all the safegaurds in place.

have you ever met anyone who has left america to find a job? they all come here because we have so many jobs. we have so many jobs because of our laxed laws of employment.

[Utah Joe]

That is a pretty warped view, Joe.

I guess you can't edit your posts in here so this is what I wanted to change that to:

That is a very unrealistic view, Joe


John

You totally misunderstood. It was a hypethetical question and its anwser was as realistic as gas becomming $60 a gallon overnight. I was not saying that I would want to ride a bike to work. but what else could I do? I cant afford $60 a gallon gas at my current pay. And in that REMOTE situation, I would imagine I would not be the only one to have to take up bike riding. If exxon decided to just change gas prices to $60 a gallon overnight, they would be out of bussiness rather quick. If all of them got together and did it they would be in violation of many laws.

[atc250r]

I got ya. I thought maybe you lived close to work and would bike to work. I knew that you were speaking hypothetically about the fuel price but I thought you really would have started biking it. I'd probably get a moped if that were to happen.

John

[Utah Joe]

no, when you are treated like a slave, QUIT!!!! go elsewhere. Pick another profession, start your own bussiness, etc.... You want you loved ones to be provided for, simple, pay for life insurance. And I guess we can live off social security and the government forever, that will do it.

As long as you have no responsibilites, you of course can quit. When other people or you yourself rely on your job, it's a different story.

For example, if you are 60 years old and are 5 years from retirement and have 2 kids and a wife, you can't just leave your job. But your employer can fire you any time.

Ok, I dont have kids which I have no doubt is a major life change. But, I do have many bills that have to be paid. I totally rely on my job, right now (untill I move) I would be in serious trouble without it. But that does not mean I am not always thinking about my options for work. The minute I feel misstreated here, I will start looking around.

BTW, my current job I found at a CCM job fair. However I have had friends help me before with other jobs. I am probablly 50/50 between contacts and other methods

[satanpez]

For example, if you are 60 years old and are 5 years from retirement and have 2 kids and a wife, you can't just leave your job. But your employer can fire you any time.

You can leave if you find a better job. Why would you not want to leave? Trapped because you'd lose a company pension? One more reason to not have a company controlled pension. It seems you think that people's skills aren't worth anything to an employer or possible employer

-Steve in NJ

[Utah Joe]

So we settled on Tuesday? What about Nate? Rich? Utah?

-Steve

Tuesday sucks for me. Is there any other day? Its been a while since I have seen you guys, I dont even have the same girlfriend anymore.

[gtluke]

what are you doing with all that left over granola?

[Utah Joe]

what are you doing with all that left over granola?

hahahahaha, thats gone, but there is still TONS of dave matthews, greatful dead, and phish music in my itunes that has not been deleted yet. :lol:

[gtluke]

you need to run that thing over with the most fuel inefficient vehicle you can find

[Utah Joe]

OMG, you should have seen her when we decided to rent an H2 for our last trip to Utah.

[gtluke]

you should have accidently run over a prius on purpose :)

[satanpez]

WTF, I didn't know she was that much of a hippie. That's almost as bad as my girlfriend.

Utah, shouldn't you be throwing a moving in party or something. Where'd you move to?

-Steve

[gtluke]

she was vegetarian dude. they are all dirty hippies.

[rsk_wannabe]

Rene, it is not only Luke and Utah, but Satan and Smurf as well that are trying to enlighten you. ;)

BTW, don't be so defensive about being called a socialist. In theory, that is the fairest system. However, you being the "realist" should know that a system where all persons selflessly work for the benefit of the whole is a huge pipe dream. Human nature takes care of that. Besides as a successful business owner, you are probably the most capitalistic sunovagun here. Are you just yanking our collective chains?

FWIW, I am willing to discuss these issues over a few beers and give my .02 from the viewpoint of a sole-breadwinner of a family of five working primarily in federal government service and some corporation, who majored in economics, studied and travelled abroad, and lived overseas for eight years. I will endeavor to keep up with the discussion. Anyone interested in a cookout in the poconos some weekend?

[DrSmile]

I think I'm heading up to Nate's for a bike ride this Sunday, something about my comrades holding a protest rally... :oops: But yeah I wouldn't mind a good old fashioned bbq, assuming bloddy meats will be served :)

[rsk_wannabe]

Of course you have to have skills. My point is:

1) The company teaches you most of the job specific skills for the particular job they're hiring you for and

True, but it is how well you do with the skills you are taught that defines your success in the organization. When you can (1) improve your skillset faster than the next guy; (2) start creating more efficiencies within the organization; (3) show great initiative without being instructed on what to do, etc... that is what will ensure your job security.


2) They can train pretty much anyone else to do your job if need be.

Perhaps, but as I will be quick to admit, I am likely the most incompetent mechanic in our group despite my strong desire to learn and improve my skills. So even though training people on general concepts may be universally possible, being adept at those chores is likely not going to be identical for everyone. It is the person who works hardest and is best suited for that job who will rise to the top. Provided of course he/she is motivated to do so, either with performance bonus or fear of job loss. Heck, some people may do a great job simply because they love their work. That is the best motivator of all.


My ego isn't so big as to think that I am irreplacable or infallible in my job. Luckily I get about 24 chances to get things right with my patients, and I try hard to be pleasant enough so the patients/parents are more tolerant if things don't go as smoothly as planned. The same applies to the corporate environment. When you screw up, the hope is that your boss corrects you and helps you not make the same mistake again, and being nice to your boss sure helps!

Doesn't the normal adult mouth have 32 teef? So I guess you can still justify braces if you have at least 8 left.


And YES employees screw up daily. I bet even YOU screw up every now and then. And YES that is ok because it's part of being human.

No one said anything about being perfect. The point is an employer is more likely to keep the employee who tries the hardest, makes the fewest mistakes and has a positive attitude. I have managed as many as 30 people during my past military duties and ironically now find myself on the opposite end of the management/labor roles as I enter my civil service career. Once you realize what a manager truly wants, how to be recognized as a good employee is not such a big secret.


As for the decline of schools, they LAST people I would blame are the teachers. They vast majority of them work VERY hard for very little commensurate pay. I used to teach in a high school, and motivation of teachers was the least of the problems at the school. The bigest problem was RADICAL cuts in school funding.

Finally, we can agree on something. So now, lets get more funding to schools, buy more books, and pay better salaries to teachers. I bet you would find the quality of instruction would improve. I for one would like to do the teaching thing. I would like to think that my background would be a good fit. That is why there are the "troops to teachers" programs. But unless and until the pay would allow me to provide for my family, I guess I will have to wait to do that after retirement from current jobs, and work primarily for the altruistic aspects you alluded to earlier.


I would bet that more than 50% of people on here got their current job because they knew someone. I admit I did.

Be honest, you got your job because you "knew" someone ... in the biblical sense.

[rsk_wannabe]

I think I'm heading up to Nate's for a bike ride this Sunday, something about my comrades holding a protest rally... :oops: But yeah I wouldn't mind a good old fashioned bbq, assuming bloddy meats will be served :)

I'll take care of the bloody burgers if someone brings the granola.

[DrSmile]

Be honest, you got your job because you "knew" someone ... in the biblical sense.

Well, that is certainly the most FUN way to get a job! :lol:

[gtluke]

i knew steve, who knew there was an opening at my job. he didn't help me get my job, but just let me know there was an opportunity.

[Utah Joe]

WTF, I didn't know she was that much of a hippie. That's almost as bad as my girlfriend.

Utah, shouldn't you be throwing a moving in party or something. Where'd you move to?

-Steve

She stopped alot of that hippie shit before I started dating her. She quit being a vegitarian (luke you were there when she was easting steak at bonzai with us) and she stopped using that horse piss perfume (patchouli) . But the music, no hair washing, and smoking weed stayed, hahahahahaha.

Steve I am moving to sparta. Little lake comunity called sparta lake. Friend of mine is letting me rent his grandparents old house if I paint the outside and pay the yearly taxes on it. Works out to about $350 a month. Its much nicer and a little bigger than my house now for 1/4 of the rent. No garage, but you cant have everything. I should be moved by the end of the month, when I finish, I will have everyone over.

[gtluke]

is this the thread where we were talking about rich democrats?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbc ... 30087/1002 (http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071123/NATION/111230087/1002)

[DrSmile]

No doubt you have to be stupid and ignorant to vote republican, which likely makes you poor. :oops:

I say we have a debate at Breezys ASAP.

[atc250r]

A debate over a few beers sounds good to me. Lets get this thing going Rene. PM me with what works best for you and we can set it up with Luke and Steve.

John